Riposte by Disengagement vs Riposte with a double - Fencing.Net Discussion
topleft topright

Go Back   Fencing.Net Discussion > General Fencing > Fencing Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-23-2008, 12:02 PM   #1
Member
 
skit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 30
skit
Riposte by Disengagement vs Riposte with a double

I am having problems telling the difference between these two terms which can be found under Chapter 2. Glossary, FIE Technical Rules (Book 1). They literally look the same but obviously they shouldn't be!

Riposte by disengagement: a riposte which hits the opponent in the opposite line to that in which the parry was formed (by passing under the opponent's blade if the parry was formed in the high line, and over the blade if the parry was formed in the low line).

Riposte with a double: a riposte which hits the opponent in the opposite line to that in which the parry was formed, but after having decribed a complete circle round the opponent's blade.

Last edited by skit; 04-23-2008 at 12:20 PM.
skit is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
And now for this message...
Go Green members don't see these ads.


Old 04-23-2008, 12:28 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,354
keith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by skit View Post
I am having problems telling the difference between these two terms which can be found under Chapter 2. Glossary, FIE Technical Rules (Book 1). They literally look the same but obviously they shouldn't be!

Riposte by disengagement: a riposte which hits the opponent in the opposite line to that in which the parry was formed (by passing under the opponent's blade if the parry was formed in the high line, and over the blade if the parry was formed in the low line).

Riposte with a double: a riposte which hits the opponent in the opposite line to that in which the parry was formed, but after having decribed a complete circle round the opponent's blade.
The difference is the opponents counter parry;

Bear in mind the confusing terminology; if you parry sixte the simple riposte is to quarte (the opposite line to the parry). If you parry quarte the simple riposte is to sixte (again the opposite line). The riposte line refers to which quadrant of the opponents target you hit. The parry refers to which quadrant of your target the hand/blade stops in.

So to riposte with the disengage the opponent attempts a lateral (quarte sixte) or vertical line change (sixte octave) which you deceive to hit.

The riposte with a double results in a deception of a circular parry (counter sixte, quarte or whatever).
__________________
the will of all things is to continue to be as they are
keith is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2008, 12:54 AM   #3
Member
 
skit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 30
skit
Thanks a lot! You'd solved the riddle for me.
But I have another problem with the Remise which, according to the FIE rules, is a simple and immediate offensive action which follows the original attack, without withdrawing the arm, after the opponent has parried or retreated, when the latter has either quitted contact with the blade without riposting or has made a riposte with is delayed, indirect or compound.
Does it mean that priority will be awarded to the Remise, even if the riposte is an Indirect one? But in the real fight, according to my understanding, a riposte with disengagement (a simple, indirect riposte) is given priority over any remise!
skit is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2008, 05:01 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,354
keith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond reputekeith has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by skit View Post
........... according to the FIE rules...............
It has been said many times before; if you attempt to learn fencing from the FIE rules all you will learn is how to give yourself a headache.

Once again the translation is tricky - indirect can mean with a disengage into the same line, or it can mean with a line change (parry sixte, riposte octave). You could parse those two actions differently from a RoW perspective.
__________________
the will of all things is to continue to be as they are
keith is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2008, 05:25 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
peet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,680
peet has a reputation beyond reputepeet has a reputation beyond reputepeet has a reputation beyond reputepeet has a reputation beyond reputepeet has a reputation beyond reputepeet has a reputation beyond reputepeet has a reputation beyond reputepeet has a reputation beyond reputepeet has a reputation beyond reputepeet has a reputation beyond reputepeet has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by skit View Post
Thanks a lot! You'd solved the riddle for me.
But I have another problem with the Remise which, according to the FIE rules, is a simple and immediate offensive action which follows the original attack, without withdrawing the arm, after the opponent has parried or retreated, when the latter has either quitted contact with the blade without riposting or has made a riposte with is delayed, indirect or compound.
Does it mean that priority will be awarded to the Remise, even if the riposte is an Indirect one? But in the real fight, according to my understanding, a riposte with disengagement (a simple, indirect riposte) is given priority over any remise!

Note that that passage defines the remise, but does not indicate that it has ROW. It sure sounds like it's trying to, but doesn't actually say "this is when the remise has priority over the riposte".

And as mentioned, using the rulebook to learn about fencing actions is a dicey proposition. Better to learn fencing actions from a coach, and learn ROW from that coach and the refs in your bouts.

-p
__________________
http://askfred.net
peet is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2008, 08:20 PM   #6
Just Joined
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 17
Openeyes has a spectacular aura aboutOpeneyes has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by skit View Post
Thanks a lot! You'd solved the riddle for me.
But I have another problem with the Remise which, according to the FIE rules, is a simple and immediate offensive action which follows the original attack, without withdrawing the arm, after the opponent has parried or retreated, when the latter has either quitted contact with the blade without riposting or has made a riposte with is delayed, indirect or compound.
Does it mean that priority will be awarded to the Remise, even if the riposte is an Indirect one? But in the real fight, according to my understanding, a riposte with disengagement (a simple, indirect riposte) is given priority over any remise!
Welcome to the world of fencing! Lol.

The 'simple' answer to your question is any riposte that is simple will have priority over any remise. The two simple indirect ripostes (via disengage and coupe) are defined as 'simple' for exactly this reason (so that properly executed they are immune to remise or counter in time) However, while a riposte via coupe that brings the hand back or a disengage that 'waits' for the parry for example, are still called simple/indirect actions the fault in execution leaves them open to the remise or counter.

It's also worth noting that under current rules no matter how simple and direct your riposte may be, it will fail if it arrives more than 350 milliseconds after the remise registers.

Cheers,
-h
Openeyes is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Overshooting the riposte Epee Scherma Fencing Discussion 17 04-03-2006 10:54 PM
Riposte by disengagement Mark Fencing Discussion 19 06-23-2005 07:46 PM
Fleche--Right of Riposte? Thom Cate Rec Sport Fencing 2 02-21-2005 03:28 PM
riposte with disengage noname Fencing Discussion 1 11-23-2003 09:36 PM
Avoiding a riposte rsy Fencing Discussion 30 09-07-2003 04:38 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:15 AM.


(c) 1995 - 2007 Fencing Net; Fencing.Net, fdn, Fencing101, Epee101, Foil101, Sabre101 are all trademarks of Fencing.Net, LLC.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. - Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5 -    Medieval Swords from the online Replica Sword Shop