Riposte by Disengagement vs Riposte with a double

[skit]

I am having problems telling the difference between these two terms which can be found under Chapter 2. Glossary, FIE Technical Rules (Book 1). They literally look the same but obviously they shouldn't be!

Riposte by disengagement: a riposte which hits the opponent in the opposite line to that in which the parry was formed (by passing under the opponent's blade if the parry was formed in the high line, and over the blade if the parry was formed in the low line).

Riposte with a double: a riposte which hits the opponent in the opposite line to that in which the parry was formed, but after having decribed a complete circle round the opponent's blade.

[keith]

I am having problems telling the difference between these two terms which can be found under Chapter 2. Glossary, FIE Technical Rules (Book 1). They literally look the same but obviously they shouldn't be!

Riposte by disengagement: a riposte which hits the opponent in the opposite line to that in which the parry was formed (by passing under the opponent's blade if the parry was formed in the high line, and over the blade if the parry was formed in the low line).

Riposte with a double: a riposte which hits the opponent in the opposite line to that in which the parry was formed, but after having decribed a complete circle round the opponent's blade.

The difference is the opponents counter parry;

Bear in mind the confusing terminology; if you parry sixte the simple riposte is to quarte (the opposite line to the parry). If you parry quarte the simple riposte is to sixte (again the opposite line). The riposte line refers to which quadrant of the opponents target you hit. The parry refers to which quadrant of your target the hand/blade stops in.

So to riposte with the disengage the opponent attempts a lateral (quarte sixte) or vertical line change (sixte octave) which you deceive to hit.

The riposte with a double results in a deception of a circular parry (counter sixte, quarte or whatever).

[skit]

Thanks a lot! You'd solved the riddle for me.
But I have another problem with the Remise which, according to the FIE rules, is a simple and immediate offensive action which follows the original attack, without withdrawing the arm, after the opponent has parried or retreated, when the latter has either quitted contact with the blade without riposting or has made a riposte with is delayed, indirect or compound.
Does it mean that priority will be awarded to the Remise, even if the riposte is an Indirect one? But in the real fight, according to my understanding, a riposte with disengagement (a simple, indirect riposte) is given priority over any remise!

[keith]

........... according to the FIE rules...............

It has been said many times before; if you attempt to learn fencing from the FIE rules all you will learn is how to give yourself a headache.

Once again the translation is tricky - indirect can mean with a disengage into the same line, or it can mean with a line change (parry sixte, riposte octave). You could parse those two actions differently from a RoW perspective.

[peet]

Thanks a lot! You'd solved the riddle for me.
But I have another problem with the Remise which, according to the FIE rules, is a simple and immediate offensive action which follows the original attack, without withdrawing the arm, after the opponent has parried or retreated, when the latter has either quitted contact with the blade without riposting or has made a riposte with is delayed, indirect or compound.
Does it mean that priority will be awarded to the Remise, even if the riposte is an Indirect one? But in the real fight, according to my understanding, a riposte with disengagement (a simple, indirect riposte) is given priority over any remise!

Note that that passage defines the remise, but does not indicate that it has ROW. It sure sounds like it's trying to, but doesn't actually say "this is when the remise has priority over the riposte".

And as mentioned, using the rulebook to learn about fencing actions is a dicey proposition. Better to learn fencing actions from a coach, and learn ROW from that coach and the refs in your bouts.

-p

[Openeyes]

Thanks a lot! You'd solved the riddle for me.
But I have another problem with the Remise which, according to the FIE rules, is a simple and immediate offensive action which follows the original attack, without withdrawing the arm, after the opponent has parried or retreated, when the latter has either quitted contact with the blade without riposting or has made a riposte with is delayed, indirect or compound.
Does it mean that priority will be awarded to the Remise, even if the riposte is an Indirect one? But in the real fight, according to my understanding, a riposte with disengagement (a simple, indirect riposte) is given priority over any remise!

Welcome to the world of fencing! Lol.

The 'simple' answer to your question is any riposte that is simple will have priority over any remise. The two simple indirect ripostes (via disengage and coupe) are defined as 'simple' for exactly this reason (so that properly executed they are immune to remise or counter in time) However, while a riposte via coupe that brings the hand back or a disengage that 'waits' for the parry for example, are still called simple/indirect actions the fault in execution leaves them open to the remise or counter.

It's also worth noting that under current rules no matter how simple and direct your riposte may be, it will fail if it arrives more than 350 milliseconds after the remise registers.

Cheers,
-h