Re-entering the Competition Circuit

[Rapier_wit]

After a long dry spell, I decided to get back into the tournament/competition route, only to have my butt handed to me at the recent New Zealand Uni Games. (To those going down under - don't underestimate NZ fencers!) Then again, I have been out of things for a while, but needless to say I've still got a few questions....

1. Is there any way to tell the 'elasticity' or for lack of a better term, "spring-y-ness" of a weapon's blade? I handled some swords who's blade were very stiff and others that felt like an arm flicker's dream.

2. One of the major problems I had was not having my own equipment, thus forcing me to have to beg other clubs for handouts. I've been putting off buying my own equipment since I've been moving around so much, but I think now I'm just going to bite the bullet and get my own gear. So, on one question - what would be the basic gear for a competition fencer? (I keep missing something, like extra screws, etc.)

3. Is there any particular brand out there best suited for the female figure? I've been running through jackets from Triplette, Uhlmann, Leon Paul, etc. and have observed they're all cut very differently. Any thoughts?

4. Any particular stretches for getting a lower fencing stance? I've been doing ballet for the past couple semesters so my legs have gotten used to being high and straight. Needless to say it caused me some major problems this past week. Oh yeah, and......

I'M BAAAACK!!!

[AlphaFire X5]

1. Try 'em out is basically the response I usually hear. Each blade is different, even within the same batch when they were forged. If you want to get fancy engineering, you can perform a few standard bend tests such as a destructive elongation test, or a non-destructive bend test involving a weight on the end.

2. Basic gear:

Protective
Shoes
Knee-high socks
Knickers
Underarm Protector
Jacket
Glove
Mask

Notes: Ideally, as many parts of your uniform should be FIE approved, but top priority would be your mask. FIE gear will last longer and typically be more comfortable and of higher quality, but it will also cost more as well.

Weapons/Cords
Since you fence epee, and since based on what you say you attend these tournaments on your own, you're going to want at least three epees. Two is the minimum, three is a better number. Have at least two body cords in good working order, and depending on what quality of body cords you get have a third just in case.

Parts/Tools
For this I will be assuming that you will be able to perform basic repairs on your weapons in between bouts, but will not have time (or don't know how) to do your own wiring.

Inside/Outside hex tools (depending on what pommel nuts you use)
Jewelers screwdrivers (tiny flatheads)
Epee tip screws, springs, and tips (for when you lose yours)
Magnet cup (helps with holding screws, springs, tips, etc)
Small adjustable pliers

Above is the bare minimum of stuff you'd want. If you want more, grab the stuff below too:

q-tips and alcohol (general cleaning)
various sized screwdrivers
extra body cord parts
wire clippers and strippers

3. Yeah... can't help you with this one. :P

4. Go into a lunge position, the turn your back foot in so it is parallel with your front, and drop your back knee to the ground; you should feel a stretch in the bottom of your thigh. If not, bend your torso down and try to drop your front shoulder underneath your leg and put your nose to your ankle. Repeat for the other leg.

Similar to above, but instead of being in a lunge you should be straighter up and your back foot should be pointing forward and flat. You should feel a stretch in your calf. Repeat for the other leg.

Find a bench or something higher off the ground than a foot or two. Place your foot on top of this and lean your torso into your leg. This is another bottom-of-the-thigh stretch (don't know the specific term). Once these muscles are loosened up it's easier to sink into a deeper stance.

[Rapier_wit]

Alpha - My thanks for the lengthy reply. It's certainly helpful!

1. I figured as much, though I wasn't sure as to whether or not there was an order to them (such as a B5 blade or what have you - in a sense sort of like pencils - one's labeled B (2B-9B) have softer, thicker leads whereas H's (2H-6H) have thinner, harder leads.). Alright, well I'll just try a batch out and see how they work. Unfortunately I know nothing of the tests you just mentioned, so I might leave that for a later date when I'm a bit more experienced.

2. I've got a pair of shoes that I bought to try to feign for fencing shoes (they're a pair of $20 LA Gear streamlines), but at the end of the day they're not fencing shoes. I learned from this past comp that fencing in street shoes is a dumb idea. What's your opinion on fencing boots vs. fencing shoes?
- I would imagine they would have to be FIE approved to be sufficient for competitions. Though, out of curiousity, would there be a time, if any, to switch from 350N to 800N or is that pretty much just reserved for the national/international circuits?
- Well...I'm about to switch to foil. I never learned the correct parries, bladework, etc. that one learns in foil before going to epee. I just got launched straight into epee. Would it be feesible to get away with 1-2 foils at the moment? (I'm smelling a rather large bill at the end of all of this)
- How much would you say would be the average cost for obtaining all of this equipment?

3. Hah, understandable.

4. I'll try those later today and see how they work. Muchas gracias!

[KD5MDK]

The level of equipment required is determined by your national federation. Consult with them if 350N is needed or FIE or what.

[Rapier_wit]

Hm, I'm currently stuck between the US and New Zealand. I'm not sure which country I'm staying in permanently. So I'd need to find out both countries' requirements. Is there any website or link I can go to to find out that information?

[AlphaFire X5]

Originally Posted by Rapier_wit

1. I figured as much, though I wasn't sure as to whether or not there was an order to them (such as a B5 blade or what have you - in a sense sort of like pencils - one's labeled B (2B-9B) have softer, thicker leads whereas H's (2H-6H) have thinner, harder leads.). Alright, well I'll just try a batch out and see how they work. Unfortunately I know nothing of the tests you just mentioned, so I might leave that for a later date when I'm a bit more experienced.

I don't think there are any markings as to which blade is more flexible than others. Some manufacturers, such as Leon Paul for example, give you a relative idea of the differences in stiffness between their blades, but manufacturing processes still produce variations even in the same batches. High end manufacturers have better consistency between batches than low end forges, though. FIE approved blades will last longer and not suffer from plastic deformation as easily (where the blade bends, and then remains bent). Some FIE blades are stiff, whereas others are essentially noodles. We have one at the club I'm at that is as flexible as many foils, if not moreso. It makes people laugh when they see how flexible it is.

As for the tests, that's just fun nerdy engineering stuff that will just tell you about the metal. It's far easier to just feel a blade out.

I pick out all my (saber) blades by hand. I'd do the same for epee if I ever decided to buy one. Go to a tournament with a vendor and take a look at their selection of blades and feel them out. Find someone more experienced than you to give you a hand if you don't feel confident. If they are generous they will walk you through the process of feeling a blade out to see which has a good balance. Some blades are tip heavy, others can roll to the side, others are just a huge combination of crap.

Originally Posted by Rapier_wit

2. I've got a pair of shoes that I bought to try to feign for fencing shoes (they're a pair of $20 LA Gear streamlines), but at the end of the day they're not fencing shoes. I learned from this past comp that fencing in street shoes is a dumb idea. What's your opinion on fencing boots vs. fencing shoes?

Yeah, I too found that fencing tournaments (especially saber) in non-fencing shoes is typically not the best idea. For high-tops and low-tops (boots v. shoes, respectively), it's really down to personal preference. Some people like the feel of the high tops and say they like the extra support, others prefer the low tops. Again, it's just down to what feels good for you.

Originally Posted by Rapier_wit

I would imagine they would have to be FIE approved to be sufficient for competitions. Though, out of curiousity, would there be a time, if any, to switch from 350N to 800N or is that pretty much just reserved for the national/international circuits?

Between the US and New Zealand, it's best to go with FIE gear just to be safe. The US requires 350N gear at competitions hosted by the USFA, but I am not sure about NZ.

I've found that the FIE approved 800N uniforms are of significantly higher quality than the more affordable 350N uniforms. If you buy a cheap jacket you can (typically) expect it to wear out significantly sooner than an FIE jacket. The initial cost of buying gear is extremely high, especially if you want quality stuff. However, it is an investment. You can buy a $100 jacket that will last a season or two maybe, or you can buy a $200 jacket that will last 4 or more seasons.

Another advantage of FIE gear is that I've found is that it feels better to wear. Higher quality materials make moving around easier, and even on low end FIE models, stretch panels aide in mobility while retaining a better fit.

I've also found that when fencing epee is that I don't get nearly as bruised when I wear an FIE jacket compared to a standard 350N jacket. While the FIE jackets have a higher puncture protection (800N v. 350N) they also offer a bit more padding typically, just because the material is of higher quality.

My personal opinion is that every mask you buy should be FIE approved. Standard arguments are that "You only get one face, ugly as it may be" etc. The same quality arguments as above (material quality, durability, build quality, fit and finish, etc) apply to masks as well.

Originally Posted by Rapier_wit

Well...I'm about to switch to foil. I never learned the correct parries, bladework, etc. that one learns in foil before going to epee. I just got launched straight into epee. Would it be feesible to get away with 1-2 foils at the moment? (I'm smelling a rather large bill at the end of all of this)

At a competition you are going to need at minimum 2 weapons and 2 body cords. This is in case one weapon breaks you can immediately pick up another and continue the bout. If you do not have a second weapon on strip you can (and typically will) receive a yellow card. Foils are less prone to breaking compared to epees, so 2 should be fine, provided you keep them properly maintained.

And there is nothing wrong with jumping straight into epee. When I started fencing I started on epee and then proceeded to saber, but still play around with epee just for fun. I am a terrible foil fencer. I can't even describe how bad it is. Yes, while many schools teach foil first, there is no reason why epee isn't a valid starting weapon either.

Originally Posted by Rapier_wit

How much would you say would be the average cost for obtaining all of this equipment?

A lot.

Seriously.

It's sad to say, but it's true. Fencing is expensive, but it really balances out. The initial purchase of all this gear (especially if you decide you're in this for the long run, as I have) is pretty steep, but if you get quality stuff it will last you for years to come, especially if you take care of it. If you get cheaper stuff (better idea if you aren't sure whether you're going to stick with this) you'll have to replace it more often, though the initial price isn't as high you'll end up paying more as the years progress just replacing your gear that breaks.

You'll also have to look at where you should splurge and where you should scrimp. I buy cheap saber gloves because I can get two of them and use one for tournaments and one for practice. This keeps both of them working far longer than just using one for both. Expensive saber gloves would no doubt last longer, but with how I sweat and my practice schedule, it's more cost effective for me to have to cheapy ones than one expensive one.

If you're doing foil you're going to need a lame too, which brings in many more factors. There are tons of discussions here on what lame to buy and which one works best and which one you should get and whether you should just get an expensive one as your first one and more and more and more. I won't go into that. I'll just say that if you decide you want to fence foil you'll need a lame.

Also, I forgot! You're a girl! You need a chest protector. I think this is self explanatory.

Average cost for a full set of FIE whites including an underarm protector , FIE mask, glove, two foils, two bodycords, a foil lame, shoes, a bag to carry everything, chest protector, socks, and the little parts like screws and springs and tape and stuff...

$1200

That's a rough estimate, and you can no doubt save by looking for deals and shopping at different online vendors or going to national tournaments and waiting for the vendors to heavily discount their stuff at the end of the weekend. However, that $1200 will get you high quality gear that will last you years to come. You'll have to replace disposables eventually of course, like blades for example, but it will be far less often than if you buy cheap stuff.

If you decide to fence epee, it might be a little more, little less. Epees are typically more expensive than foils, but you don't have to deal with replacing lames either. In reality, all the weapons equal out in terms of price. Epees have expensive weapons that are notorious for breaking, but don't have lames to buy. Sabers are dirt cheap (my blades are $30) and last for quite a while, but the initial investment for saber is much more due to expensive masks and lames. Foil is in between the two.

Buying "sets" from manufacturers can help reduce the cost if you decide that you want to make that massive investment and like what the sets are composed of.

Originally Posted by Rapier_wit

4. I'll try those later today and see how they work. Muchas gracias!

Just remember to ease into it. Try a few of the classic stretches like sitting or standing with legs further than shoulder width apart and stretching down to touch your toes (center, right, and left). It helps if you're warmed up a little too, so a quick jog around the gym followed by stretching should help.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by AlphaFire X5

The US requires 350N gear at competitions hosted by the USFA...

Are you sure that you aren't thinking of the BFA?

I just checked the 2007 USFA rule book and its only requirement is "Fencers’ clothing must be made of sufficiently robust material and be clean and in good condition." (m.25.3).

Mind you, I agree with the recommendation for FIE gear. It's entirely possible that NZ requires it.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by Rapier_wit

Hm, I'm currently stuck between the US and New Zealand. I'm not sure which country I'm staying in permanently. So I'd need to find out both countries' requirements. Is there any website or link I can go to to find out that information?

NZ fencing NGB website:
http://www.fencing.org.nz/

Clothes rules in NZ:
http://www.fencing.org.nz/files/FeNZBYLawsMar2006.pdf
Go to page 16 in that document, section M.

Say hi to Karl Snell and everyone else in NZAF from me!


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[AlphaFire X5]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

Are you sure that you aren't thinking of the BFA?

I just checked the 2007 USFA rule book and its only requirement is "Fencers’ clothing must be made of sufficiently robust material and be clean and in good condition." (m.25.3).

Mind you, I agree with the recommendation for FIE gear. It's entirely possible that NZ requires it.

Not sure what I was thinking of. I thought the USFA did require 350N uniforms but apparently not. However, 350N is only 79 lbf of puncture resistance, which even the most bottom end jackets no doubt come close to. So while not explicitly stated I'm sure many would interpret the rule to be the 350N uniforms.

Also, bravo for actually reading through that massive novel of a post I made.

[KD5MDK]

You are incorrect. If I see your coach at the tournament today I'm going to tell him to slap you.

[AlphaFire X5]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

You are incorrect. If I see your coach at the tournament today I'm going to tell him to slap you.

Incorrect regarding the bottom end jacket's minimum level of protection, or incorrect regarding my assumption that the rules would be interpreted that way?

[downunder]

Originally Posted by AlphaFire X5

Incorrect regarding the bottom end jacket's minimum level of protection, or incorrect regarding my assumption that the rules would be interpreted that way?

Both.

[AlphaFire X5]

Originally Posted by downunder

Both.

Well. Amerikkans is dum.

[KD5MDK]

As its been explained to me, if we set a numeric standard lower than 800N/1600N, it would be very risky in court when asked why we didn't use the international standard. If we set the standard at FIE, most fencers and clubs will be unable to afford to fence. Hence the absence of a standard requirement.

[fencerbill]

Regarding 2 weapons and 2 body cords.

The rules say you must appear at the strip ready to fence with 2 working weapons and 2 working body cords.

And, let's face it, both weapons and body cords stop working. But that doesn't excuse you for the next bout after one stops working, you still need 2 working weapons and 2 working body cords.

I recommend 3 working body cords, although one can be an emergency reserve that you hopefully never have to unwrap.

For your first competitions, which might be likely close to where you practice, you might be able to get away with 2 and 2. Specially if you are sociable and get along with the people where you fence. They may be willing to temporarily loan you something.

But as soon as you start to travel further to competitions where you are less likely to know people and where people are less willing to loan out equipment, then you should build up to 3 body cords and at least 3 weapons.

The number of weapons needed is highly variable. A lot depends on how handy you are at replacing grub screws and tips and in stretching or replacing springs.

When I used to go to US National Epee tournaments, I would have 3 body cords and 4 weapons - I am very handy at small, quick repairs.

[Rapier_wit]

I'm still torn between foil and epee, to be quite honest. I've gotten so used to doing epee, but at the same time I'm being badgered with the fact that foil is the "proper weapon to begin with." Unfortunately there's no coaches for any one-on-one training here, just clubs. The main problem is I'm stuck in the icky middle of being an intermediate fencer. I'm not a beginner per se (though I certainly feel like it!) and I'm certainly not advanced.

Alpha - I think for now I'll stick with base fencing gear and save the repair items for later. No sense in completely killing my pocketbook in one fell swoop.

I'm getting so confused whilst looking at the various companies' jackets and breeches. Just on here, I can't tell what the real difference is between the 3 FIE 800N jackets. On another side note, is there any brand that tailors more specifically to women? I know every brand seems to cut their uniforms a bit differently, but is there any specific to thinner, more model-build women?

Hm, I'll go with NZ's standards then. Better to be safe with the standards, then play it off by another country's and end up having to buy new equipment all together. So I'll just stick with the international standard of 800N/1600N.

Peter - If I ever get a chance to meet them, I'll try to remember to pass on your greeting. How's life in le Sweden?

[AlphaFire X5]

Originally Posted by Rapier_wit

Alpha - I think for now I'll stick with base fencing gear and save the repair items for later. No sense in completely killing my pocketbook in one fell swoop.

The repair items aren't really that expensive, actually. The tips and springs, maybe, but if you're doing epee you definitely want some tip screws and a set of jeweler screwdrivers at minimum. You can get a jar of tip screws for $5, and a set of tiny screwdrivers for another $5. Easy and cheap.

[Druid]

I'd be surprised if American National Tournaments require less than FIE gear.
Nationals in Australia require FIE

[Druid]

Stick with epee its the REAL weapon!!!!!!
In regards to jacket cuts etc, i too am shopping for new FIE gear after a long break and have decided on Uhlmann as my last FIE Jacket and Breeches were.I found them so much comfy-er that Allstar (which i had previous to that) which supposedly has a narrower cut. Its just nice not to have spray-em-on gear, you can fence much better.