4/18 FIE Letter

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Some interesting news/maybe it's news from an urgent FIE letter today:

First, the WS WC in Hanoi May 24-25 is cancelled, as is the MF/WF individual and team competitions May 23-25 in Egypt. Financial problems for Egypt; 2008 Veitnam National Games conflict for the WS event. Is it just me, or do you think the National Games conflict would have been obvious for some time?

In other news:

The FIE Executive Committee, which held a meeting on 12 April 2008
in Acireale (ITA) on the occasion of the Junior/Cadet World
Championships, took the following decisions:
1) Video-refereeing For foil and sabre competitions as well as for team competitions, the video-refereeing system will be used from the table of 32 onwards. Many federations requested its use for épée competitions but this remains optional.

The following text has been added to the section in the Administrative Rules relating to video-refereeing: Following a request by one of the fencers to check the video, the decision given is final and his opponent cannot ask for the same action to be checked again.

Here the FIE codifies one of the biggest problems with the video refereeing: no review of an overturn of a director's initial call at match point by an independent examiner. Tsk Tsk. Good thing they didn't get all bogged down in excess fairness or anything...

2) Electric bib in foil. Following the decisions taken by the 2007 Congress, and at the request of the manufacturers, the new bib in foil will be mandatory as of 1 January 2009 for senior competitions, and as of 1 October 2009 for the junior competitions.

Be the first on your block to get the new-fangled bib...as soon as someone makes one...!

[the ancient one]

And how does this "wild card" for the Olympics work?

And what (who) is "The Tripartie Commission" who awards them?

[Timacheff]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

2) Electric bib in foil. Following the decisions taken by the 2007 Congress, and at the request of the manufacturers, the new bib in foil will be mandatory as of 1 January 2009 for senior competitions, and as of 1 October 2009 for the junior competitions.

Be the first on your block to get the new-fangled bib...as soon as someone makes one...!

I asked about the new bib in my recent audio interview with Ioan Pop, FIE technical director, and specifically asked about how this will affect fencers and their pocketbooks -- given that masks are one of the most expensive pieces of equipment to purchase. He said that the manufacturers will be producing a relatively inexpensive bib overlay of lame material that will avoid causing fencers to purchase new masks.

I have yet to see a prototype of one.

I will say that I have noticed in my photography endeavors at various world events that there are a rather large number of bib hits. It is my fervent belief, and I have discussed this with other members of the FIE, that this will significantly change the game and will make a notable difference on its pace with far fewer non-valid hits -- as well as how fencers target and play the foil game. It's my opinion that it will improve foil fencing, at the very least from the spectators' perspective.

[edew]

Yesterday at a youth-12 saber, one fencer was hit in the neck underneath the bib. It wasn't just a scratch. There was a hole deep enough to see connective tissue and such. If the bib becomes a foil target, fencers may start trying to hit the neck and I can see the possibility of more fencers getting holes in their neck much like this unfortunate 12 year old.

(True, it was saber, but the foil tip isn't that much different.)

[samh]

I don't think that people intentionally targeting the neck is really going to become any kind of problem in the future. Epeeists have always had the neck as target but it isn't a practical place to make hits.

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by samh

I don't think that people intentionally targeting the neck is really going to become any kind of problem in the future. Epeeists have always had the neck as target but it isn't a practical place to make hits.

Its not a practical place to hit in epee because the mask itself is valid. I think people may start going for the bib as a way to hit the squirmers that protect themselves with their mask.

[keith]

Originally Posted by catwood1

Its not a practical place to hit in epee because the mask itself is valid. I think people may start going for the bib as a way to hit the squirmers that protect themselves with their mask.

At which point squirming becomes less effective, people do it less and the bib becomes less of a first choice target.

The mask may be valid target in epee, but it is also the target you are most likely to glance off - if you are planning on hitting the head, the bib is the better target.

[Nolano]

Originally Posted by keith

*snip*
The mask may be valid target in epee, but it is also the target you are most likely to glance off - if you are planning on hitting the head, the bib is the better target.

I disagree.... To me it seems like the mask mesh is the perfect material for even what would be an otherwise glancing hit to catch and be a touch....

[keith]

Originally Posted by Nolano

I disagree.... To me it seems like the mask mesh is the perfect material for even what would be an otherwise glancing hit to catch and be a touch....

Isn't it marvelous to partake of a sport where great minds are free to differ?

[sionnach]

Originally Posted by Nolano

I disagree.... To me it seems like the mask mesh is the perfect material for even what would be an otherwise glancing hit to catch and be a touch....

The mesh is far too fine for that, the point slides right off without catching unless you hit the mask very close to square on. Every épéeist knows that, there's a reason there are so few mask hits in épée.

[Katman]

Yeah, foilists know it now too, which is why lots of them love to use their mask to cover target nowdays.

I love it when my point bounces around on their mask and the stupid box doesn't go off.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Katman

Yeah, foilists know it now too, which is why lots of them love to use their mask to cover target nowdays.

I love it when my point bounces around on their mask and the stupid box doesn't go off.

Yes, and the only thing that worries me about the new target (other than the fact that it will cost money and there hasn't been a design made for it yet and there's only 9 months until it happens) is that refs will be more hesitant to call covering target with the mask, while this will just mean that they're covering more target when they do it.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Nolano

I disagree.... To me it seems like the mask mesh is the perfect material for even what would be an otherwise glancing hit to catch and be a touch....

spoken like someone that hasn't fenced nearly enough epee.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by sionnach

The mesh is far too fine for that, the point slides right off without catching unless you hit the mask very close to square on. Every épéeist knows that, there's a reason there are so few mask hits in épée.

I wish you would mention that to Todd Russel who makes my mask a prime target. You just learn to not let him have a clear shot at it.

[Phrogger]

Now this is coming from an epeeist, but I tend to agree that the bib is impractical as a deliberate target area. Normally it isn't any closer or less defended than the torso, so logic says to go for the center of mass in the torso. The bib will likely going to continue to be an area of second opportunity if the intended target is missed. In addition, I have a feeling some of the people who do a lot of ducking might be a little less well off with this change.

[KD5MDK]

How can you miss torso and remise to neck? Or do you mean after you've missed arm etc.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Phrogger

Now this is coming from an epeeist, but I tend to agree that the bib is impractical as a deliberate target area.

you don't fence many people shorter than you, do you?

Fencing against shorter fencers with reasonably strong sixte hand positions, closing quarte to hit in the bib area is a good action.

[Phrogger]

Good point! I wasn't looking at it from that point of view. In epee I don't think I'd ever deliberately target the bib, but maybe in foil without the mask/shoulder as target it would work on a shorter opponent.

[counterattack]

Originally Posted by edew

Yesterday at a youth-12 saber, one fencer was hit in the neck underneath the bib. It wasn't just a scratch. There was a hole deep enough to see connective tissue and such. If the bib becomes a foil target, fencers may start trying to hit the neck and I can see the possibility of more fencers getting holes in their neck much like this unfortunate 12 year old.

(True, it was saber, but the foil tip isn't that much different.)

Really, Eric? "Think of the children!"? I hardly can believe that you think fencing with neck as a target is noticeably more dangerous in foil. I am sure at the very margins it will lead to more injury, but fencing also leads to more injury than sitting at home in front of the TV. I just don't think this is a huge problem. I think foil will be better, conceptually how could making a hit to the very middle of the chest valid be wrong? Lord knows youth foil will be faster since there won't be so many off targets just because the kids wear huge masks and have such tiny torsos. Unless and until fencers voluntarily improve their gloves (which have demonstrable safety issues) I won't buy any "the bib is dangerous" arguments and I will assume they are all cover for other reasons. I think Eric just doesn't want to have to buy new bibs for all his club masks ;-)

-philip

[edew]

I think what they'll do is allow non-conductive bibs for in-house fencing and such. I'd do that and over time (say, 30 years), rotate out the old masks and get new ones with the conductive bibs.

My youth fencers, saber and foil all hit me in the bib area, despite me telling them not to. (I have the crappiest coaching jacket that doesn't properly cover the neck area and the mask's bib doesn't do a good job either. I'm getting skewered left and right.)