Reffing at a national youth event

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


I reffed (ME, boys aged 12-13) in a big competition in Malmö, about one hour´s drive from my home in April 4th. The competition was a 2-day thing, covering all events in foil&epee in the age classes up to age 17, both boys and girls. There were some 250 entries. Some notes and questions:

1. JEC had given me a sports bottle with the USFA logo on it last summer, for me to give to Zilverzmurfen. Finally I got around to doing my part - I gave it to a female ref (BL) from ZZ´s club, who promised to forward it.

2. This competition is one of a series of 8 around the country which together give points for the national points standings for the younger-than-seniors. Those competitions are the highest level competitions in the country, bar the national championships. I reffed 2 poules, 3-4 1/8-finals, and one quarterfinal. If it would have been the corresponding USFA competition, what ref rating would the BC have given that task? Would a ref with a 10 rating be given such a job? What would the name of the corresponding competition in USFA be?

3. I reffed several fencers in multiple bouts. Due to that, I saw some of their personal preferences in fencing - some like to fleche a lot, some are very defensive, etc. If I would have been set to start reffing only after the competition had reached its later stages, I could have been looking at the fencers before I was due to ref them.

That presents me with a choice: Shall I, as a ref, approach a bout with a mind as open as a tabula rasa, or should I follow the dictum "forewarned is forearmed"? If I study a fencer before his bout with me at the side, I will be more likely to know his idiosyncrasies, what rules he is more likely to break, etc. so that I know what too look for. OTOH, one could argue that this approach leads to a biased mind, and that should be avoided at all costs. What is your opinion on this matter? Any hard-and-fast rules, or does it depend on the circumstances?

4. In the 1st poule, I had started out the poule by pointing out that I did not want to see bad guard positions before my command "allez!". Whenever I caught the fencers with their front foot not completely behind the guard line, I asked them to move accordingly. After I had pointed out that thing at least 3 times during the course of the poule to one fencer, he did it again and I gave him a yellow card. He promptly pulled back that foot, and neither him nor any other fencer in that poule did it again. However, when I talked to his father about other rules issues directly after that poule, the father said that I had gone about it incorrectly. The father has a FIE ref rating, and during his active career has gotten medals that no USFA ME fencer has never attained, so his word carries a lot of weight. The father said that I should have told the fencers that I wanted to see good guards, and failure to comply would result in cards. Then, if they failed to comply, I could card them for "willful disobedience to the ref" (what is the correct term in English?). I did so for the rest of the competition. What is your take on this?

5. One of the young fencers came from Finland, but had a Swedish name. I assumed that he came from the Swedish-speaking minority there, and called everything in Swedish. Halfway trough the poule, his club-leaders told me that he did not speak any Swedish. (Swedish and Finnish are as different as English and Chinese.) From there on, I called numbers in Finnish, and all other statements in English. A few times I almost called his #touches in Swedish and his opponents in Finnish, but caught myself. Caused some mirth on the bench, though. Should I have confirmed his literacy before the poule? How common is it to call points bilingually?

6. After the quarterfinal, one parent of the losing fencer approached me in the BC room when I handed over the bout slip. That parent was, how shall I put it, not entirely pleased with my reffing. (I can take the details in PM with f.net members which have ref ratings, but I do not feel like spilling the beans totally openly.) I asked the parent to approach the head ref together with me and file a formal complaint, but the parent emphatically did not want to do so, the parent simply demanded that I would consider things the same way as that parent did, and admit the error of my ways. I withheld that the best course of action would be to take it to the head ref, but the parent would have none of that. Directly thereafter, I asked the head ref to send an observer to my next bout, should there be one. The head ref said that that would not be necessary, since I already have my reffing license. Since that was the last quarterfinal, there was no more bout for me - the last few bouts were done by the two most active/used refs in Sweden.

Is it possible for a ref to ask the BC/head ref that he himself should be observed? Is it proper? Have you ever seen it happen? Any other comments on this situation?


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[edew]

Hi!


I reffed (ME, boys aged 12-13) in a big competition in Malmö, about one hour´s drive from my home in April 4th. The competition was a 2-day thing, covering all events in foil&epee in the age classes up to age 17, both boys and girls. There were some 250 entries. Some notes and questions:

[...]

2. This competition is one of a series of 8 around the country which together give points for the national points standings for the younger-than-seniors. Those competitions are the highest level competitions in the country, bar the national championships. I reffed 2 poules, 3-4 1/8-finals, and one quarterfinal. If it would have been the corresponding USFA competition, what ref rating would the BC have given that task? Would a ref with a 10 rating be given such a job? What would the name of the corresponding competition in USFA be?

For a USFA national-level event, you'd probably need at least an 8 or higher (7 or higher, probably). For local and regional, probably no particular rating, just ability and presence.

3. I reffed several fencers in multiple bouts. Due to that, I saw some of their personal preferences in fencing - some like to fleche a lot, some are very defensive, etc. If I would have been set to start reffing only after the competition had reached its later stages, I could have been looking at the fencers before I was due to ref them.

That presents me with a choice: Shall I, as a ref, approach a bout with a mind as open as a tabula rasa, or should I follow the dictum "forewarned is forearmed"? If I study a fencer before his bout with me at the side, I will be more likely to know his idiosyncrasies, what rules he is more likely to break, etc. so that I know what too look for. OTOH, one could argue that this approach leads to a biased mind, and that should be avoided at all costs. What is your opinion on this matter? Any hard-and-fast rules, or does it depend on the circumstances?

There's nothing wrong with studying a fencer prior to or during a bout. Heck, I learn a lot of cool techniques by watching what others do. But, while refereeing, one should stay impartial as much as possible.

4. In the 1st poule, I had started out the poule by pointing out that I did not want to see bad guard positions before my command "allez!". Whenever I caught the fencers with their front foot not completely behind the guard line, I asked them to move accordingly. After I had pointed out that thing at least 3 times during the course of the poule to one fencer, he did it again and I gave him a yellow card. He promptly pulled back that foot, and neither him nor any other fencer in that poule did it again. However, when I talked to his father about other rules issues directly after that poule, the father said that I had gone about it incorrectly. The father has a FIE ref rating, and during his active career has gotten medals that no USFA ME fencer has never attained, so his word carries a lot of weight. The father said that I should have told the fencers that I wanted to see good guards, and failure to comply would result in cards. Then, if they failed to comply, I could card them for "willful disobedience to the ref" (what is the correct term in English?). I did so for the rest of the competition. What is your take on this?

"On guard and "ready" are commands, not questions. So, if they're not on guard and not ready (i.e., foot past the on-guard line, heel up, whatever), it's an immediate card. No need to tell them ahead of time.

5. One of the young fencers came from Finland, but had a Swedish name. I assumed that he came from the Swedish-speaking minority there, and called everything in Swedish. Halfway trough the poule, his club-leaders told me that he did not speak any Swedish. (Swedish and Finnish are as different as English and Chinese.) From there on, I called numbers in Finnish, and all other statements in English. A few times I almost called his #touches in Swedish and his opponents in Finnish, but caught myself. Caused some mirth on the bench, though. Should I have confirmed his literacy before the poule? How common is it to call points bilingually?

I do it multi-lingually. But if people ask for the score in English, I do so (or point them to the scoring machine's display). I don't see it happening in epee for me that much since there's very little needed in describing action. But in foil and saber, after saying "parry", "riposte", "remise" etc., one gets used to the french terms and then it's easy to go announcing the score in french. Then I throw in a bit of German and italian and spanish. Never tried keeping score in chinese (cantonese) though. It'll be clear that few of my fencers will understand.

6. After the quarterfinal, one parent of the losing fencer approached me in the BC room when I handed over the bout slip. That parent was, how shall I put it, not entirely pleased with my reffing. (I can take the details in PM with f.net members which have ref ratings, but I do not feel like spilling the beans totally openly.) I asked the parent to approach the head ref together with me and file a formal complaint, but the parent emphatically did not want to do so, the parent simply demanded that I would consider things the same way as that parent did, and admit the error of my ways. I withheld that the best course of action would be to take it to the head ref, but the parent would have none of that. Directly thereafter, I asked the head ref to send an observer to my next bout, should there be one. The head ref said that that would not be necessary, since I already have my reffing license. Since that was the last quarterfinal, there was no more bout for me - the last few bouts were done by the two most active/used refs in Sweden.

Is it possible for a ref to ask the BC/head ref that he himself should be observed? Is it proper? Have you ever seen it happen? Any other comments on this situation?

Refs could ask for observance. But a ref shouldn't do that because a parent sort of promulgated the whole thing. Are you telling me that parents in Sweden are just as helicopterish as they are in the US? I'm off to IKEA in a few minutes and don't want my shopping experience negatively affected by bad thoughts about the Swedes.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[downunder]

3. I reffed several fencers in multiple bouts. Due to that, I saw some of their personal preferences in fencing - some like to fleche a lot, some are very defensive, etc. If I would have been set to start reffing only after the competition had reached its later stages, I could have been looking at the fencers before I was due to ref them.

That presents me with a choice: Shall I, as a ref, approach a bout with a mind as open as a tabula rasa, or should I follow the dictum "forewarned is forearmed"? If I study a fencer before his bout with me at the side, I will be more likely to know his idiosyncrasies, what rules he is more likely to break, etc. so that I know what too look for. OTOH, one could argue that this approach leads to a biased mind, and that should be avoided at all costs. What is your opinion on this matter? Any hard-and-fast rules, or does it depend on the circumstances?

Go into each fight with your mind open. You obviously will referee fencers many many times over your career, but that should not affect how you referee.

4. In the 1st poule, I had started out the poule by pointing out that I did not want to see bad guard positions before my command "allez!". Whenever I caught the fencers with their front foot not completely behind the guard line, I asked them to move accordingly. After I had pointed out that thing at least 3 times during the course of the poule to one fencer, he did it again and I gave him a yellow card. He promptly pulled back that foot, and neither him nor any other fencer in that poule did it again. However, when I talked to his father about other rules issues directly after that poule, the father said that I had gone about it incorrectly. The father has a FIE ref rating, and during his active career has gotten medals that no USFA ME fencer has never attained, so his word carries a lot of weight. The father said that I should have told the fencers that I wanted to see good guards, and failure to comply would result in cards. Then, if they failed to comply, I could card them for "willful disobedience to the ref" (what is the correct term in English?). I did so for the rest of the competition. What is your take on this?

Sounds like it worked . To be honest I'd probably just direct the fencer to move back unless it was systematic. It's a judgement call, and considering it didn't happen again you probably didn't make the wrong one in this circumstance.

5. One of the young fencers came from Finland, but had a Swedish name. I assumed that he came from the Swedish-speaking minority there, and called everything in Swedish. Halfway trough the poule, his club-leaders told me that he did not speak any Swedish. (Swedish and Finnish are as different as English and Chinese.) From there on, I called numbers in Finnish, and all other statements in English. A few times I almost called his #touches in Swedish and his opponents in Finnish, but caught myself. Caused some mirth on the bench, though. Should I have confirmed his literacy before the poule? How common is it to call points bilingually?

I was told (unless it is an FIE event, where it would obviously be french) that you referee in the language of the competition. Since it was a Swedish competition I would expect to be refereed in Swedish. Again, since it was a junior competition, it was probably very helpful that you were also able to score in Finnish for the fencer.

6. After the quarterfinal, one parent of the losing fencer approached me in the BC room when I handed over the bout slip. That parent was, how shall I put it, not entirely pleased with my reffing. (I can take the details in PM with f.net members which have ref ratings, but I do not feel like spilling the beans totally openly.) I asked the parent to approach the head ref together with me and file a formal complaint, but the parent emphatically did not want to do so, the parent simply demanded that I would consider things the same way as that parent did, and admit the error of my ways. I withheld that the best course of action would be to take it to the head ref, but the parent would have none of that. Directly thereafter, I asked the head ref to send an observer to my next bout, should there be one. The head ref said that that would not be necessary, since I already have my reffing license. Since that was the last quarterfinal, there was no more bout for me - the last few bouts were done by the two most active/used refs in Sweden.

Is it possible for a ref to ask the BC/head ref that he himself should be observed? Is it proper? Have you ever seen it happen? Any other comments on this situation?
[/QUOTE]


Do you think the parent would have been as unhappy with your refereeing had his/her child won? Parent complaints are a bad part of youth fencing and most of the time unwarranted. If the head referee was comfortable with your refereeing then you should have nothing to worry about. Send me a PM if you like, or any of the other FIE referees, we're more than happy to help.

[catwood1]

Its definitely not a requirement that you warn fencers that you will card them if they don't come engarde.

However, a quick mention of it when you gather your pool around before you start never hurts. So many refs do NOT card for it, that fencers get used to not following the rules. All I say in the beginning of a pool on the matter is "If I say engarde, you have to come engarde. Blade up, feet apart, behind the line. Anything else I will card you." And it usually gets the point across.

I think this holds especially true in youth events. You can be the guy that throws the cards, when the fencers barely know why, or you can facilitate good fencing. I prefer to be the latter.

[notalent]

Hi Peter,
Regarding the ratings and relative strength of the tournament. It seems like it would be analogous to an SYC. At these events you will find many levels of referees most with ratings. I have seen unrated refs be allowed to do gold medal matches, on the low end, FIE A refs with olympic experience on the high end. As for assigning ratings to a ref based on 1/4 finals I would be suprised to see anything higher than a 7 for any Y14 or younger bout. The one that EDew and I were both at 2 weeks ago a young ref earned a 6 for the gold of the 14 MS. He did show strip presence, enough to calmly handle outburst by one of our national team coaches, plus some *****ing from some other coaches.

As for the foreigners who don't speak the native language. I ref in french at that point. I seem to recall that being something that is/was in the rulebook, but I maybe wrong on that. Worse case scenario everyone is a bit, hopefully equally, confused.

I see parents are the same everywhere, and yes head refs hear complaints from everyone not just coaches. I have been asked to observe higher rated refs than myself simply to get rid of said coach, fencer, parent. Most ironic of them was having the head ref ask me to observe her, a 3 and former olympian , I was a 5 at the time.

[KD5MDK]

2) I did a semi-final of Y10WF at Summer Nationals as a 7. Didn't increase my rating any. I would say this sound comperable to an SYC (Super Youth Circuit)

4) If a referee has instructed a fencer to not do something (or do something) multiple times, they do not need to add "you will be carded for this". It may be nicer, and even effective to just caution them, but it is not required.

5) One should generally presume that absent instructions to the contrary, you use the language of the host country.

6) If someone has a complaint with you but isn't willing to present it to anybody else, it's not a valid complaint. Welcome to our world.

[fencerX]

"On guard and "ready" are commands, not questions.

No. While "on guard" is an order, "[are you] ready?" or the equivalent in another language is defined in the rules as a question.

[KD5MDK]

Yeah, I saw that issue earlier and then forgot it.

[edew]

No. While "on guard" is an order, "[are you] ready?" or the equivalent in another language is defined in the rules as a question.

Starts off as a question. Turns into a polite request. Then evolves into a stern request and eventually ends as a command.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Do you think the parent would have been as unhappy with your refereeing had his/her child won?

I very strongly doubt it.

Parent complaints are a bad part of youth fencing and most of the time unwarranted. If the head referee was comfortable with your refereeing then you should have nothing to worry about. Send me a PM if you like, or any of the other FIE referees, we're more than happy to help.

I will do so, thanks.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson