US Police State

[jjefferies]

In your opinion is the US becoming a police state? Or should I say more of a police state? Or is it simply zeitgeist and it's true of all nations. In the few short years that I've been aware of such things it seems so.

Anyway, for anyone who's curious about such things here's a much more eloquent speaker on the subject, Bruce Schneir. He speaks of the mechanics of such things as fear, terror, computer crimes and points out how we surrendered basic freedoms for the illusions of safety.

schneier@counterpane.com
<http://www.counterpane.com>
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My point in bring such a subject up in a fencing venue is that there appear to me to be basic parallels between what we do on the strip and how such issues work out on the world stage. That is if you care to look beyond just the athleticism.

Think I'll go take some ibuprofen and a hot tub. In that order.
Night

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

In your opinion is the US becoming a police state? Or should I say more of a police state?

The fact that you can ask this question and still be around to read my answer demonstrates to me that you are one of the power elite in this police state.

Therefore, you are either planting this in the hopes that a potential critic might speak up, making it easier for our secret police to round him up (in which case, carry on), or you are dissembling in the hopes of keeping the masses in the dark by pointing out the uncertainty of the possibility (in which case, carry on).

As one member of the power elite to another, I must confess that our secret police aren't exactly the envy of the world. When was the last time we actually rounded up any dissidents? I mean, come on, people gripe and moan about the government all over the place, and nobody even lifts a finger to lock them up or silence them! Oh sure, they complain they're being silenced when someone voices a contrary opinion or disagrees with their perspective, but if that's the worst they can complain of then all I can say is it's shameful.

At least our leaders are on the ball when it comes to dictating what we do and how we do it. Oh sure, nobody ever hears about people being "disappeared" for exercising their so-called "liberties," but that's just because our government-controlled media carefully makes sure that information never gets out.

You know, when our leaders let me travel (yes, I'm THAT privileged), I hear other peoples moan about their countries turning into "police states." All I can say (after dutifully turning them in) is, they haven't got a clue. If they want to see a real authoritarian country where the rulers know how to keep their people in line, they should come here. Not that we'd let them visit, of course.

Carry on, fellow member of the privileged few! I have to go now, someone seems to be at the do

[Shi no Tenshi]

+rep to Epee Pox!

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

The fact that you can ask this question and still be around to read my answer demonstrates to me that you are one of the power elite in this police state.
Therefore, you are either planting this in the hopes that a potential critic might speak up, making it easier for our secret police to round him up (in which case, carry on), or you are dissembling in the hopes of keeping the masses in the dark by pointing out the uncertainty of the possibility (in which case, carry on).

Ah, discovered so quickly. You must be Inq in another incarnation.

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

As one member of the power elite to another, I must confess that our secret police aren't exactly the envy of the world. When was the last time we actually rounded up any dissidents? I mean, come on, people gripe and moan about the government all over the place, and nobody even lifts a finger to lock them up or silence them! Oh sure, they complain they're being silenced when someone voices a contrary opinion or disagrees with their perspective, but if that's the worst they can complain of then all I can say is it's shameful.

Well, let's see in the past week there's that nasty religious group down in Texas. Plant the rumor that a sixteen year old girl is having babies and you've got the right to round up all the adults, take their children off to be sequestered in a foster homes where they can be appropriately abused. Not a bad piece of work that. And the Sheriff just made re-election with very little effort. Now a sixteen year old having a baby in the ghetto or even in suburbia is no big news. But if we put the right slant on it. Wonder how long it will take to work up a suitable plant to justify it all

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

At least our leaders are on the ball when it comes to dictating what we do and how we do it. Oh sure, nobody ever hears about people being "disappeared" for exercising their so-called "liberties," but that's just because our government-controlled media carefully makes sure that information never gets out.

Well I can understand you wanting to avoid hearing about it and that's not too difficult. My cousin and her husband are evangelicals - not my spiritual orientation you understand but I do listen to them - working within the prison system. No one disappears you just put them in prison. BTW, The United States now has the largest prison population in terms of actual numbers and percent of population in prison of any nation in the entire world (I believe that factoid came from the New York Times a few weeks ago). Much larger than communist China, un-repentant Russia or even that axis of evil North Korea. My cousin woke me to the fact that large parts of the US population regard the laws of the US as irrelevant to their lives as a free people. And our police are now out there correcting that misunderstanding - I'm not sure whether its the irrelevancy or free parts, much as they did during Prohibition. BTW, were you aware that the Mafia and organized crime did not exist before Prohibition? Yes, my understanding is that organized crime is a product of the American legal system and we've spent how much over the years to combat it. Just as we're spending how many Billions to keep fellow Americans from f**king themselves up with drugs. But all that money flows to the police to round up the criminal/stoned class and to the judges and lawyers who make their money and then to the guards and the builders of prisons. Talk about your growth area. The US legal system is the one part of this society which has never had a financial down turn. If the Mafia is the product of Prohibition I wonder what we're going to get out of the drug wars?

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

You know, when our leaders let me travel (yes, I'm THAT privileged), I hear other peoples moan about their countries turning into "police states." All I can say (after dutifully turning them in) is, they haven't got a clue. If they want to see a real authoritarian country where the rulers know how to keep their people in line, they should come here. Not that we'd let them visit, of course.

Not sure of your logic. But I agree we do keep a lot of people out. Mostly the ones that apply legally. Those that are serious about coming here can just break the law and be at risk like the rest of us.

Cheers

[Shi no Tenshi]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

BTW, The United States now has the largest prison population in terms of actual numbers and percent of population in prison of any nation in the entire world (I believe that factoid came from the New York Times a few weeks ago). Much larger than communist China, un-repentant Russia or even that axis of evil North Korea.

Um, did the fact that those other countries just kill people off ever occur to you? Yes, our prison system sucks, as it is more focused on separation, rather than rehabilitation. Therein lies the problem though...we never rehabilitate, then we wonder why they go back......

[keith]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

Not sure of your logic. But I agree we do keep a lot of people out. Mostly the ones that apply legally. Those that are serious about coming here can just break the law and be at risk like the rest of us.

Speaking from personal experience the US undoubtedly has the worst, most irritating and costly immigration system of any developed country, but still

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

{snip}Plant the rumor that a sixteen year old girl is having babies and you've got the right to round up all the adults, take their children off to be sequestered in a foster homes where they can be appropriately abused. {snip}

To be fair--the phone call from the girl accused her husband of beating and raping her.

{snip} BTW, were you aware that the Mafia and organized crime did not exist before Prohibition?
{snip}

That should be quite a shock to the Sicilian Mafia and the early American one--both widely believed to have originiated (in the modern sense) in the late 19th Century.

Certainly prohibition had an effect on strengthening the US Mafia, but cause it...no.

While I agree that the "war on drugs" has had quite a corrosive effect on the country, and there are other areas in which I'm unhappy with the current policies and directions relating to surveillance and other issues--to call the US a "police state" turns the term on its head from its general meaning, IMHO.

--Philistine

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by Philistine

To be fair--the phone call from the girl accused her husband of beating and raping her.

For which he deserves to be punished and harshly. But so far they've not found her leaving open the question if she exists. BUT secondly in order to punish one person apparently the authorities have decided to punish them all. And I question if this is because of the purported incident or because the mormons follow a different social norm. BTW, I'm not mormon nor particularly in favor of Polygamy (well other than in the usual idiotic male fantasy - reality is realizing each wife comes equipped with a mother (in-law). But some of the reports which have reached the major media seem to indicate that the local authorities had long wanted to crack down on these people and force them to follow the social norms of their neighbors. Even though by all reports they took care of their families, their land and were very productive (can be taken in many ways). I feel we, outsiders, need to read the reports with a very skeptical eye.

Originally Posted by Philistine

That should be quite a shock to the Sicilian Mafia and the early American one--both widely believed to have originiated (in the modern sense) in the late 19th Century.
Certainly prohibition had an effect on strengthening the US Mafia, but cause it...no.
While I agree that the "war on drugs" has had quite a corrosive effect on the country, and there are other areas in which I'm unhappy with the current policies and directions relating to surveillance and other issues--to call the US a "police state" turns the term on its head from its general meaning, IMHO.
--Philistine

Ah well I probably over stated that cause and effect. I suppose it would be more correct to say that the Mafia was not known in this country except as a minor Italian/Sicilian social organization before Prohibition. I believe that was its initial existence.

Agreed we have yet to see all of what will come from the Drug wars. Only thing for certain is that it will exist as a Hollywood caricature just like mobsters long after it's morphed into something else which is more worrisome.

But my overall point has been that misapplication of law and police power in the US has and still is creating monster social problems and inequities. But the legal powers that be favor this because it feeds into their own pockets.

Regards

[jjefferies]

Thought some of you might enjoy this one:
By Alex Johnson
Reporter
MSNBC
updated 11:12 p.m. PT, Thurs., March. 20, 2008

Last week, Dallas officials reviewed the numbers and decided that a quarter of the cameras they had installed to catch motorists running red lights were too effective. So they shut them down.

They are not alone. Faced with data showing that drivers pay attention to cameras at intersections — resulting in fewer ticketable violations and ever-shrinking revenue from fines — municipalities across the country are reconsidering red light cameras, which often work too well.

At the heart of the discussions taking place in city councils and county commissions is tension between the twin benefits that were touted when local governments began installing cameras about a decade and a half ago. Officials were promised that the cameras — which take snapshots of busy intersections, capturing the license plates of any cars that are running the light — would simultaneously save lives and generate millions of dollars in extra fines.
The first half of that equation is arguably true: A federal study found a small but measurable reduction in injuries nationwide in accidents at intersections monitored by cameras, though there was an increase in some kinds of collisions.

It is the second half of the equation that may be beginning to collapse. As drivers learn where the cameras are, they are more careful. Fewer of them run red lights. Local governments collect fewer fines.

Fewer violations = less revenue
Sometimes, as in Dallas, cameras generate so little revenue that they can’t even pay for themselves.

Citywide statistics obtained by NBC affiliate KXAS-TV found that red light cameras do reduce accidents. That is a good thing.

But they do it by reducing red light violations, by as much as 29 percent from month to month at particularly busy Dallas intersections. On the face of it, that, too, is a good thing — but not, necessarily, if you rely on traffic fines to make up a healthy chunk of your budget.

Dallas lawmakers originally estimated gross revenue of $15 million from their 62 cameras this fiscal year, which ends June 30. But City Manager Mary Suhm estimated last week that the city would fall short by more than $4 million.

So last week, the city turned off about a quarter of the least profitable cameras, saying it couldn’t justify the cost of running them.

Safety benefits questioned
Dallas was just following the lead of several other cities that have shut down red light cameras.

City officials in Charlotte and Fayetteville, N.C., recently turned off all of their red light cameras, concluding that a state law diverting much of the revenue they generate in fines to schools meant their general funds were actually losing money, NBC affiliate WNCN of Raleigh reported.

In Bolingbrook, Ill., meanwhile, officials ended their red light camera program after statistics showed a 40 percent drop in ticketable offenses.

Nor is money the only reason cameras have been removed. In Lubbock, Texas, the City Council shut down all its cameras last month, citing a report that showed statistically significant increases in rear-end collisions at intersections, including those with cameras.

[sionnach]

I read so many horror stories about the behaviour of Police and especially the TSA in the United States that it really does deter me from holidaying there. My unfortunate circumstance of having the same name as a UDA hitman could really land me in an awful lot of bother next time I visit

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Shi no Tenshi

Um, did the fact that those other countries just kill people off ever occur to you?

To be fair, we're nearly the only Western country to still have the death penalty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:D..._World_Map.png

From a quick look, it seems like just us an Japan. Maybe I'm missing some. The basic idea that abolishing the death penalty has become a standard for Western countries in modern times remains.


So no, they're not all killing off their prisoners (some might be, but not all). We just have a flawed system.

[Shi no Tenshi]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

To be fair, we're nearly the only Western country to still have the death penalty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:D..._World_Map.png

From a quick look, it seems like just us an Japan. Maybe I'm missing some. The basic idea that abolishing the death penalty has become a standard for Western countries in modern times remains.


So no, they're not all killing off their prisoners (some might be, but not all). We just have a flawed system.

Did you notice that the 3 he listed were: North Korea, China, Russia. Please, tell me: which one of those is a "western country"?
I even quoted that direct passage in the reply, so people knew what I was replying to.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

To be fair, we're nearly the only Western country to still have the death penalty:

Well...officially, at least.

I doubt that "disappeared" persons shot in the head and buried in an unmarked rural grave somewhere appreciate the distinction all that much.

Although the original claim was for "any country in the whole world'", not "Western countries". Definitioanl retreat, tsk.

Sidenote on rehabilitation: It is pretty widely agreed that it simply doesn't work in the vast majority of cases.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Shi no Tenshi

Did you notice that the 3 he listed were: North Korea, China, Russia. Please, tell me: which one of those is a "western country"?
I even quoted that direct passage in the reply, so people knew what I was replying to.

Oh, I thought you meant that those (i.e., every other country in the world which is what the statement you quoted referenced) countries just killed everyone off, not just the three examples he threw out there.

I won't disagree with you on the three countries mentioned, although I should point out that Russia has, officially at least, not used the death penalty for ten years. I'm not an expert on Russia or Russian law, so I don't know how that lines up with reality.

His point remains that our prison population is far larger than it should be.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Well...officially, at least.

I doubt that "disappeared" persons shot in the head and buried in an unmarked rural grave somewhere appreciate the distinction all that much.

Although the original claim was for "any country in the whole world'", not "Western countries". Definitioanl retreat, tsk.

Kind of, but not really. His statistic was not intended to show that we have the worst prison system in the whole world, but rather that the fact that we have the most prisoners of any country in the world shows that it could use some improvements. Therefore, I think it's fair to compare us to a subset of the world's countries since it's not necessary to prove that our system is worse than that of all countries, but rather that countries in similar situations to ours have prison systems that result in fewer prisoners.

Also, I think we should generally compare ourselves to other Western countries in terms of politics and political improvements.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Sidenote on rehabilitation: It is pretty widely agreed that it simply doesn't work in the vast majority of cases.

Oh,Gads. I'm agreeing with Inq. Does this mean I'm a curmudgeon too?

Serious caveat: it can work. If the individual wants it to.
IMHO the fallacy in western or at US philosophy is that you can reform (whatever that means) an individual from the outside.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

Oh,Gads. I'm agreeing with Inq. Does this mean I'm a curmudgeon too?

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.