SYC youth points list update-

[Nospam]

Last SYC has been completed. USFA states on points list page it will update the points list when the last SYC is complete. How long before points list will be updated?

[seltzerwater]

Originally Posted by fencing freakster

According to the handbook, it happens after the April NAC F.
FF

From the USFA Website- The point standings will be updated after the last SYC to include the 2007-2008 season SYC results. This is done after all of the SYC competitions are completed so that the same seeding is used for all.

So it should be updated soon according to the USFA.

http://www.usfencing.org/usfa/content/view/2703/411/

[Nospam]

Originally Posted by fencing freakster

According to the handbook, it happens after the April NAC F.
FF

Why would the points list be updated after the NAC? What is the sense to it?

I want to see my stats prior to the NAC - not after ! (Especially if seeding is involved !)

What does everyone else think? I don't think I'm off base here.

[teacup]

Originally Posted by Nospam

Why would the points list be updated after the NAC? What is the sense to it?

I want to see my stats prior to the NAC - not after ! (Especially if seeding is involved !)

What does everyone else think? I don't think I'm off base here.

Since all of the SYC's are done, whether or not it is stated in the handbook, it would make sense, for seeding purposes for the April NAC, to update the point list to include the SYC results.

Not sure the logic to wait until after the April NAC.

Does anyone remember how it was done last year?

[bbower]

If all the SYCs are finished then there is no logic in waiting until after the April NAC to apply the points. The April NAC will have a more accurate seed by factoring in the SYC results.

[passata_sotto]

Originally Posted by teacup

Since all of the SYC's are done, whether or not it is stated in the handbook, it would make sense, for seeding purposes for the April NAC, to update the point list to include the SYC results.

Not sure the logic to wait until after the April NAC.

Does anyone remember how it was done last year?

It was done after the NAC last year.

Corinne has been so on the ball this year that I, too, am hoping that it is done before the NAC. With her leaving maybe they will push things ahead faster this year. It makes more sense to me to have it done before the NAC since this year's points are more indicative of ability than last years points. Also, with technology, it is so much faster to get the SYC results to USFA.

[passata_sotto]

The point standings will be updated after the April NAC to include the 2007-2008 season SYC results and the April NAC Results. This is done after all of the SYC competitions are completed so that the same seeding is used for all.

aargh that is supposed to be POSTED not POSTER

[teacup]

Originally Posted by passata_sotto

It was done after the NAC last year.

Corinne has been so on the ball this year that I, too, am hoping that it is done before the NAC. With her leaving maybe they will push things ahead faster this year. It makes more sense to me to have it done before the NAC since this year's points are more indicative of ability than last years points. Also, with technology, it is so much faster to get the SYC results to USFA.

Even if Corinne wasn't leaving, I don't think she could update the points, until after the NAC, since that is the how it is specified in the handbook

[passata_sotto]

Originally Posted by teacup

Even if Corinne wasn't leaving, I don't think she could update the points, until after the NAC, since that is the how it is specified in the handbook

Of course you are correct.

My son earned scads of Y14 points in two weapons and of course would love to have them for both Y12 and Y14 at the NAC but he will just have to wait until July.

[Soberin]

The reasoning is as follows. The SYC events were conceived of as "one giant tournament," at least as the points are concerned. After all are completed, the best results count. The intent was for the points to be tallied in time for the SN, never for before the April NAC. Once again, we are also talking about events designed for youth fencing development, not for making a national team. Everyone should relax about any "missed opportunities" for a better seeding for their Y10, or even Y14s for April. The best fencers will do well regardless.

[bbower]

Originally Posted by Soberin

The reasoning is as follows. The SYC events were conceived of as "one giant tournament," at least as the points are concerned. After all are completed, the best results count. The intent was for the points to be tallied in time for the SN, never for before the April NAC. Once again, we are also talking about events designed for youth fencing development, not for making a national team. Everyone should relax about any "missed opportunities" for a better seeding for their Y10, or even Y14s for April. The best fencers will do well regardless.

But the SYC events are all done well in advance of the April NAC. The points need to be tallied at some point, so why not do it before the April NAC in order to improve the seeding of that event. So no, I don't think people should relax about the missed opportunity for a better seeding for the youth events at the April NAC.

[passata_sotto]

My biggest problem with it is that, for youth that work all season to improve their point standing, it only counts for one tournament for those who age out. My son is what I call a junior Y12 so his Y12 points count for the whole next year but if he were a senior Y12 then they would only count for the one tournament. If the points were counted before the NAC F then at least they would count for the two National tournaments most important to the youth. It all could be changed so that all SYCs are finished before the NAC F as they were this year so that points were updated for both tournaments. Y14 also has the NAC B and they are added in as rolling points so this what happened to my son:
He fenced epée back in NOV and made points so those counted as rolling points for both Y14 and Y12 and were updated then so they will count for the NAC F but all of SYC points he made wont count until after when they are added in with the NAC F points and only count in July and then for all of next year because he will still be Y12. If you look at it, it is a little confusing the way it is done but the way it is is the way it is.

[bbower]

Originally Posted by fencing freakster

It's been done that way for the last several years, and sometimes SYC's actually happened after NAC F.....

Who cares how it's been done in the past? This year, there are no SYCs after NAC F. Therefore, the points should could towards seeding NAC F.

It costs $100 dollars to enter a Y-10 event. Is it too much to ask the national office to find 20 minutes within the next 2 weeks to update the point standings so that the event can be seeded more accurately?

[fencerwallet]

Originally Posted by bbower

Who cares how it's been done in the past? This year, there are no SYCs after NAC F. Therefore, the points should could towards seeding NAC F.

It costs $100 dollars to enter a Y-10 event. Is it too much to ask the national office to find 20 minutes within the next 2 weeks to update the point standings so that the event can be seeded more accurately?

Man, do you objectively read what you write? The Athlete's Handbook clearly defines the point cycles. Just because a kid got SYC points and could be seeded 15th instead of 25th in an NAC Y10 "event" is no reason to disregard longstanding, memorialized rules. News flash: a Y10 kid isn't going to the Olympics any time soon... As Soberin eloquently stated, those tournaments are intended for youth fencing development. And by the way, do you really think updating those points takes 20 minutes?

[fencerwallet]

Originally Posted by passata_sotto

My biggest problem with it is that, for youth that work all season to improve their point standing...

Of course, you mean, "...work all season to improve their fencing...".

[bbower]

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

Man, do you objectively read what you write? The Athlete's Handbook clearly defines the point cycles.

I have no idea what that means.

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

Just because a kid got SYC points and could be seeded 15th instead of 25th in an NAC Y10 "event" is no reason to disregard longstanding, memorialized rules.

This is the 2nd year of SYCs.

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

News flash: a Y10 kid isn't going to the Olympics any time soon

So we only do accurate seeding for events counting towards Olympic qualification?

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

... As Soberin eloquently stated, those tournaments are intended for youth fencing development.

Then don't give points. But if you do, then make use of them in a timely fashion.

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

And by the way, do you really think updating those points takes 20 minutes?

I'm assuming results from SYCs prior to this weekend have already been processed. Therefore, there are only 9 remaning events from this past weekend to deal with. So yes, I do think it should only take 20 minutes.

[passata_sotto]

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

Of course, you mean, "...work all season to improve their fencing...".

No, I actually meant improve their point standings. As long as there are age restrictions on fencing for under thirteens you are going to have those good fencers who are going to work like crazy so that they can fence. If the only way my son can fence (because he can beat every Y12 and Y14 in our division) is to work his way up the ladder to cadet (via points) and junior (via points) then that is what he is going to do since that is the way the system is structured. For those competitive fencers not under an age restriction it is still about moving up and going for the gold.

No, I am not a pushy mother but I have a 12 year old who loves to fence. It is not that big of a deal that his points are not going to count this upcoming NAC. It is youth fencing and they should be ultimately having fun and in the big scheme of things it all comes down to how he fences in each and every tournament. Since the rule book says that the points list wont be changed until after the NAC F it is a moot point but people are entitled to their opinions.

[Dr Cox]

Originally Posted by bbower

Who cares how it's been done in the past? This year, there are no SYCs after NAC F. Therefore, the points should could towards seeding NAC F.

It costs $100 dollars to enter a Y-10 event. Is it too much to ask the national office to find 20 minutes within the next 2 weeks to update the point standings so that the event can be seeded more accurately?

Babs,

I agree that it should be used in seeding, but not for this year. The Athlete's handbook clearly defines when SYC points post to the points standings, and that is AFTER the April NAC. Changing it now defeats the purpose of having an Athlete's handbook. Of course, it shouldn't honestly matter in youth fencing, but I'm sure that the fencers (and even more so the parents and coaches) value those little patches they get for having the most points at the end of the season. Allowing SYC points to be used for seeding would be bad for little Johnny and little Mary who are obviously too good to fence SYCs, we can't have little Stevie or little Suzie seeded ahead of them! Think of the horrors that would cause.

In short, keeping points for youth fencing is moronic.

Following the rules once you've set them out is not.

The overly moronic decision of posting the SYC points after the April NAC should be changed for next year. It should read something like "SYC points will be posted to the points standings after the conclusion of the last SYC event of the season." That covers years where the last SYC is before the April NAC and years when the last SYC is after the April NAC.

-Dr Cox

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by Dr Cox

Babs...

Who the hell is Babs???

-m

[fencerwallet]

Originally Posted by bbower

I have no idea what that means..

This means you are coming off like an over-bearing soccer mom. (With apologies to soccer moms).

Originally Posted by bbower

This is the 2nd year of SYCs.

You mean for your kid, right? Because, SYCs have been around alot longer than 2 years.

Originally Posted by bbower

So we only do accurate seeding for events counting towards Olympic qualification?..

Of course I am not suggesting this. But the Handbook is quite clear as to the point cycles, such that the clamor for updating now is misguided.

Originally Posted by bbower

Then don't give points. But if you do, then make use of them in a timely fashion...

Again, for what? So that a Y10 kid is seeded 12th instead of 15th? In any event, the primary youth event is Nationals (look at the relatively small numbers for the upcoming NAC-F). Does it really make a difference-- I mean, really? Jeez.

Originally Posted by bbower

I'm assuming results from SYCs prior to this weekend have already been processed. Therefore, there are only 9 remaning events from this past weekend to deal with. So yes, I do think it should only take 20 minutes.

Well, don't forget the best result counts, so you still have to go over all the prior results. Again, do you really think it takes only 20 minutes? I think Corinne and her successor would be annoyed at how much you undervalue their time.