Overview of tactical differences between Epee and Foil

[griffindm]

Women weren't allowed to fence epee in 1973. The women of that era were quite puny, and not capable of proper fencing actions with the heavier weapon.

The women of today are of much hardier stock. I blame advances in diet, nutrition, and equality legislation.

I've heard rumors that soon they will be fencing saber, voting, and driving automobiles.

Ha! If I made that observation to the ladies in my club they would beat me up!

(hold on, maybe that validates the observation, come to think about it!)

Indeed the women of today enjoy equal opportunity bruises and welts alike.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Sarcasm is always free of charge. Experience and maturity are not.

I would not presume to lecture me about maturity unless you are ready to meet me behind the Luxembourg at 1:00 someday...

This is a forum. Neither of us know each other or where we are in life. From reading your profile, I see you are an expert in fencing. I asked a question, and you answered it. However, you have offended me in your answer. And for what cause?

What did I say in my original post that warranted your response? "I may be wrong, but ..." I prefaced my statement with an acknowledgement that I am by no means certain, but this is what I remebered.

I said 25ms, yet the rule book says 1/25 of a second. Could it be that, having barely picked up an epee, yet alone a fencing book, in four years, that I confused the terms?

[griffindm]

D'Art,

Its possible. I might have made the same error myself, but as I added, when I started they always used the 1/25 to 1/20 of a second wording. The reduction into ms was added much later.

I did not add the snip about the rulebook to offend. I added it as a gentle reminder to check your facts before passing along information that others might rely upon as gospel. The rulebook is a gastly thing for the unintiated, but it does contain a lot of useful information. Just this discussion with you let me know that the timing was not in the section I expected, but had moved to the material section, which many fencers NEVER read.

Regards,

Dave G.

[Mr Epee]

Ha! If I made that observation to the ladies in my club they would beat me up!

Better you than me.

You've come a long way, baby!

[D'Artagnan1673]

D'Art,

Its possible. I might have made the same error myself, but as I added, when I started they always used the 1/25 to 1/20 of a second wording. The reduction into ms was added much later.

I did not add the snip about the rulebook to offend. I added it as a gentle reminder to check your facts before passing along information that others might rely upon as gospel. The rulebook is a gastly thing for the unintiated, but it does contain a lot of useful information. Just this discussion with you let me know that the timing was not in the section I expected, but had moved to the material section, which many fencers NEVER read.

Regards,

Dave G.

Dave,

I don't see how you could be wrong considering you quoted directly out of the rulebook. I never doubted your answer, I just felt a burned since I did not consider that my post would be intepreted as an unfounded presentation of factual data.

The lesson I shall learn from this is to keep my typing to myself unless I have the time or inclination to research the issue first. My own scholary pursuits for the past 3 years have been relagated to finishing a degree, thus pushing fencing aside.

And the scholar remark, although certainly used in derision at the time, was nonetheless a true one considering you were able to handle the rulebook with finesse.

Regards as well, and I hope there are no more hard feelings.

D'Art

[needle]

While it is not a direct comparison of foil and epee, take a look at the book "Epee 2.0"

Since you already have an understanding of foil, this book provides a nice perspective on modern epee.

That's the least useful book on fencing I've read to date. This is a very subjective opinion, of course.

[jBirch]

I'm not sure if it's been stated yet, but there are two fundamental differences between foil and epee.

1) Acknowledgement of threat

In foil, the threat to hit the target can be met (and dismissed) in the most cursory way. A simple contact of the blades by the defender is enough to completely dismiss the attack and the counter-attack need not even be acknowledged by the attacker.

Because of that, the nature of the foil game lies mainly in the use (correctly or incorrectly) of the various parries. Blade deceptions and distance deceptions become the norm where foilists vie for tempo dominance.

In Epee, the threat to hit target must be thoroughly dealt with. It is not enough to simply meet the attacking blade, but rather the attacking blade must be dominated through the parry, riposte and counter-action. Counter-attacks are a serious threat and must be met with well prepared and executed actions.

Because of these, the epee game becomes one of blade domination and/or simple tempo actions without the same nuance of parry/riposte and big, accellerating footwork.

2) Distance & Timing

Because of the existance of the forward target in epee, and the opportunities to hit both the mask and the toe, the epee "threat envelope" is bigger. An epeeist can't just rush in and collapse the distance like a foilist can. It must be carefully opened up and swiftly entered through.

This leads to "reflexive" footwork (the bouncing, I'm sure you've seen before), the short lunges and the fleches that are designed to allow the fencer to take advantage of any fleeting opportunites that present themselves, safely.

It creates a "counter-reflexive" game where the opponent is encouraged to make a messy attack or to hesitate for a tempo so that the instigator can take advantage of targets of opportunity as they present themselves. It too creates a "hard hand" where the tip is forced through the defensive/counter-offensive actions to the target once initial dominance of the tempo has been achieved.

In foil, the fencer who is dominating the footwork (moving forward) has a huge advantage and must fight to maintain that advantage when it comes along and as the targets develop. This leads the foilist to perform big, dominating actions where they ACT from start to finish to defeat the opponent. The distance, since all actions are to the body, is by necessity, closer and tighter. The bladework is wider, and weaker, as the fencer switches from threat to chest to threat to shoulder to threat to back and the distance collapses.

Hope this helps.

James.