Purposely using faulty equipment

[Neinteen]

So the other day I'm at a small competition, and in pools, a fencer gets carded for having a small, yet existent dead spot right in the middle of his lame. [Foil. Duh]

They switched lames with a friend and continued their bout. My friend ended up facing him in DEs and the fencer was using the same lame. He got caught again and switched with his friend, who was obviously ready for the call.

Later, in the round of 8, his friend was using his lame, probably hoping to get away with it. I didn't say anything about it, but he got away with it and, to be honest, I think it might have changed the outcome.

Can a fencer on the sidelines call for a check? Are there consequences beyond a yellow card for purposely passing around an illegal lame?

Just wondering...

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

You should have a set of hand signals which your team uses to coach during bouts (your coach will know them). Perhaps add a new one for "ask to test a spot on the lame?" You could use a thumb/forefinger circle over the spot your think is dead as your hand signal.

And continuously re-using a dead lame should probably fall in the realm of cheating.

[Neinteen]

I didn't know who the fencer was. Like the person fencing the guy with the dead lame was a stranger...

How should I approach that? And what could the consequences be? Because the fencer's friend placed really well.

[pinkelephant]

The referee in the first bout where the lame failed should have confiscated it for the rest of the competition.

[brtech]

The referee in the first bout where the lame failed should have confiscated it for the rest of the competition.

Nah. They only confiscate it for the bout. You are allowed to get anything fixed between bouts. Fixing a small dead spot on a lame can be done in 15 minutes if you have the materials and sewing skills.

There is only one circumstance where something is confisicated for the entire tournament: a mask that fails punch test. Even a failed bib can be replaced.

[peet]

The referee in the first bout where the lame failed should have confiscated it for the rest of the competition.

I don't think that's correct. Non-conforming equipment is confiscated for the duration of the bout. After the bout the fencer may get the equipment fixed and put it back in service. This may seem counter-intuitive for equipment that is harder to fix quickly (like a lame), but the rules make no distinction about the type of equipment confiscated.

HTH,

-p

[edit]
Oops, br beat me to it, and was more complete re: the punch test anyway!
[/edit]

[Cookeit]

I remember one tournament not too long ago, I overhear some guy telling his friend "Hey, did you get that dead-spot fixed yet?". Then the guy replies "We'll find out today" (or something of that nature).

Of course, I had this guy in my pool.
I found the dead-spot within maybe two touches.
I ask to test and the ref rewards me with a point.

However, for some reason he wasn't asked to change his lame.
So.. whenever I would go off-target on him, I would just ask to test, then purposely hit that spot I knew where his dead spot was, and be rewarded a point. (Once again, this was pools, I wouldn't be this much of a jerk in a DE that mattered.)

His fault for wearing a faulty lame...

[telkanuru]

I remember one tournament not too long ago, I overhear some guy telling his friend "Hey, did you get that dead-spot fixed yet?". Then the guy replies "We'll find out today" (or something of that nature).

Of course, I had this guy in my pool.
I found the dead-spot within maybe two touches.
I ask to test and the ref rewards me with a point.

However, for some reason he wasn't asked to change his lame.
So.. whenever I would go off-target on him, I would just ask to test, then purposely hit that spot I knew where his dead spot was, and be rewarded a point. (Once again, this was pools, I wouldn't be this much of a jerk in a DE that mattered.)

His fault for wearing a faulty lame...

Interesting reffing going on there.

[pinkelephant]

Drawing round the dead spot with a biro means they're not going to get away with using it again until it's patched.

On the subject of confiscation, it's not supposed to be returned to the fencer, but sent to SEMI in an FIE comp. If the armourers then fix it they can send it back to the fencer.The rules specify that the equipment MUST BE RETESTED before being returned to the fencer. t.45

In a domestic comp I would confiscate a dodgy lame by sending it into the control room - a weapon failing weight or gauge tests, on the other hand, I would return to the fencer at the end of the bout as they're not going to get away with using it without its being tested when they bring it on the piste.

[keith]

Interesting reffing going on there.

... or acceptance that if you start throwing all the cards folk deserve you'll be finished the competition in half an hour.

[ACrimsonRapier]

I remember one tournament not too long ago, I overhear some guy telling his friend "Hey, did you get that dead-spot fixed yet?". Then the guy replies "We'll find out today" (or something of that nature).

Of course, I had this guy in my pool.
I found the dead-spot within maybe two touches.
I ask to test and the ref rewards me with a point.

However, for some reason he wasn't asked to change his lame.
So.. whenever I would go off-target on him, I would just ask to test, then purposely hit that spot I knew where his dead spot was, and be rewarded a point. (Once again, this was pools, I wouldn't be this much of a jerk in a DE that mattered.)

His fault for wearing a faulty lame...

Is that how it's meant to be done? I remember a competition where, in the finals, one of the guys was caught with a dead spot. He lost anyway, but the guy who found the dead spot wasn't awarded a point. Poor him. =[

[oiuyt]

Is that how it's meant to be done?

No.

-B

[Neinteen]

Can a director actually do that? Can't they only award points for cards and strip.... offaging....

Just Wondering Again....

[keith]

Can a director actually do that? Can't they only award points for cards and strip.... offaging....

Just Wondering Again....

no a director should not be doing that.

Halt, test, change lame continue bout.

In the event of no second lame a series of cards resulting in victory for opponent.

[pinkelephant]

It should be a Group 1 yellow card (or red if a yellow has already been awarded), get a replacement lame, and confiscate the one that failed. In an FIE competition the fencer then has to get their name on the new one before the next round starts.

[mrbiggs]

Can a director actually do that? Can't they only award points for cards and strip.... offaging....

Just Wondering Again....

No, t.40 states that a referee can never award a touch not registered on the scoring machine, except of course for going off the strip and red cards.

There's also a fairly obscure situation which you might consider to be an exception, when a hit lands off target and the referee sees specifically that the hit only landed off target because of covering target, then the referee may award a touch as well as the card even though there was an off-target light.

I think I covered all the bases here...in any case, no, a dead spot on a lame never results in an awarded touch.

t.40 The materiality of the touch is established according to the
indications of the apparatus, and when necessary by consulting
the judges (cf. t.36).
Only the indications of the electrical apparatus as indicated by
its own lamps or by the extension lamps can be taken into
consideration for judging touches. Under no circumstances can
the Referee declare a competitor to be touched unless the
touch has been properly registered by the apparatus (except as
provided for in Articles t.49, o.17, o.24 or when a penalty
touch has been awarded).

[keith]

It should be a Group 1 yellow card (or red if a yellow has already been awarded), get a replacement lame, and confiscate the one that failed. In an FIE competition the fencer then has to get their name on the new one before the next round starts.

so a dead spot as a lame does not count as something that could have happened 'during fencing'.

I had assumed there was a difference between presenting with a dead lame for the test vs finding a dead spot during a bout?

[TrainingDummy]

Drawing round the dead spot with a biro means they're not going to get away with using it again until it's patched.

On the subject of confiscation, it's not supposed to be returned to the fencer, but sent to SEMI in an FIE comp. If the armourers then fix it they can send it back to the fencer.The rules specify that the equipment MUST BE RETESTED before being returned to the fencer. t.45

In a domestic comp I would confiscate a dodgy lame by sending it into the control room - a weapon failing weight or gauge tests, on the other hand, I would return to the fencer at the end of the bout as they're not going to get away with using it without its being tested when they bring it on the piste.

Can you clarify a bit for me? I was at a tournament and my epee failed, so my ref brought it to the BC. When I reffed at a later tournment (I'm not a rated ref, it was self-direct) I had to confiscate a weapon and the fencer got pissed because I brought it to the BC instead of leaving it next to the piste.

[notalent]

This is something the ref should have caught. First time change the lame, no card as it may have gone dead in the bout. If I were to see the lame again in the comp, I would look to see that repairs were made. If not that is manafest cheating, black card.
At a recent SYC there was a kid using a lame several sizes too small I made him change the lame gave him a card, since its not like he grew that much during the bout. ( it took a couple of touches for me to see the promlem) He then had dad find his new lame, that had his name already on it. He got a lecture about not wearing the old lame again, and the penalty that I would impose if I saw it again. A member of the FOC had a kid in my pool and wondered what the hold up was, when I told him what the problem was, he laughed and said the kid has been using that lame for sometime and was wondering when someone was going to call him on it.

[catwood1]

Can you clarify a bit for me? I was at a tournament and my epee failed, so my ref brought it to the BC. When I reffed at a later tournment (I'm not a rated ref, it was self-direct) I had to confiscate a weapon and the fencer got pissed because I brought it to the BC instead of leaving it next to the piste.

That was most likely a mistake by the original ref. When you confiscate a weapon because it fails, you should keep it by the strip, and return it at the end of the bout.