How do Qualifiers Work

[InFerrumVeritas]

I fence in the MI Division. We have Div. II/III qualifiers next week, but I don't really understand what needs to be done to qualify. I know that it is basically a C&U tournament, and that the top X people (if anyone knows how many, I'd greatly appreciate it) qualify, but what if the Div. two slots are filled and the people next are C rated?

Really, if anyone can fully explain how this all works, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

[noodle]

its a complicated process. i'll boil it down to a single general, equally complicated statement which is NOT 100% accurate:

in each event needing to be qualified, after it has been fenced, the top 25% (rounded up) of the field able to qualify for that event are qualified, with a minimum of 3.

[InFerrumVeritas]

its a complicated process. i'll boil it down to a single general, equally complicated statement which is NOT 100% accurate:

in each event needing to be qualified, after it has been fenced, the top 25% (rounded up) of the field able to qualify for that event are qualified, with a minimum of 3.

So even if Div II and III are combined in one tournament, it is the top 25% able to qualify for Div II and the top 25% able to qualify for III, with a minimum of 3 in each? Or somthing to that effect?

So if there were 32 fencers, with 8 Cs, then the top 8 would qualify Div II and the top 6 D&U would qualify for Div III?

[KD5MDK]

What does your Athlete's Handbook say?

[InFerrumVeritas]

What does your Athlete's Handbook say?

That is what I do not understand. Are the events (Div II and III) treated seperately even though it is a single tournament? Do you qualify for them seperately even though you only fence one tournament?

[edew]

The Div II/III thing is currently a hack. In its prior existence, there was just one event, called the Div II/III/Vet qualifier. If you were a D or lower and attended this qualifier, you automatically qualified for Div III. If you were veteran aged and attended this qualifier, you automatically qualified for Vet. Otherwise, the top 40% qualified for Div II.

That was then.

Now, because we restrict the number that qualify for Div III, if there is a single event, then the top 25% qualify for Div II. Now, count the number of fencers that attended who started with a D or lower classification. Then the top 25% of that number (for those fencers) qualify for Div III. All veterans who attend still automatically qualify for Vet. Note that in this single-event case, if you were a D or lower fencer and qualified for Div II, you automatically qualify for Div III since you'd be in the top-25% of both situations.

On the other hand, the division could hold a separate Div II and Div III qualifier. In this case, the top 25% of each qualifier qualify for the respective event. In this case, if you qualify for Div II and was a D or lower (and still is), you don't automatically qualify for Div III. You need to fence in the Div III event separately and qualify there.

There are benefits and drawbacks to both methods.

[HDG]

[QUOTE=edew;678505All veterans who attend still automatically qualify for Vet. [/QUOTE]

This only applies, however, to Vets eligible to compete in a C & Under event. Right?

[oiuyt]

Note that in this single-event case, if you were a D or lower fencer and qualified for Div II, you automatically qualify for Div III since you'd be in the top-25% of both situations.

Actually, even THAT'S not currently true in all cases.

32 fencers with 8 C's. None of the C's make the top 8.

We have 8 D2 qualifiers and 6 D3 qualifiers. The D-or-under fencers in 7th and 8th place have now qualified to D2 but not D3, based on the same tournament result.

-B

[rdg]

This only applies, however, to Vets eligible to compete in a C & Under event. Right?

No. Vet's who go to the qualifier are then eligible to go the Nationals and fence Vets events. However, to fence other events (II, III, IA, I) they must qualify like everyone else.

For Vets, I think they are trying to get the numbers up, because of the uncertainty principal. You know, like, I for one, don't like to buy green banana, 'cause you just don't know if I'll be around to see them turn. One must be cautious.

Considering the size of vets, though, I think that sometime USFA may need to be a little more selective about vets, esp, Jr Vets 40 - 50. That group is getting pretty big; although nothing like Seniors.

Last year, they did have an 80% advancement at one Vet NAC. It was pretty unpopular and looked really silly when the pool of Vet Women Sabre was about 6, and only 4 advanced, but everyone got a medal.

I think 80% advance for events over 60 participants (or some other magic number) makes sense.

Sam

[wbowman]

This only applies, however, to Vets eligible to compete in a C & Under event. Right?

I think the question actually had to do with the fact that not all Vets can fence in Div II/III Qualifiers.
Basically, Vets who are A's or B's have to qualify for Nationals by fencing in a NAC (the rule says "any NAC" so I assume it means not just a Veterans' NAC), or in their Sectional qualifier.
(of course, if you're a C or below in your second or third weapon, you can qualify for THAT one at your Divusion's II/III quals)

[InFerrumVeritas]

The Div II/III thing is currently a hack. In its prior existence, there was just one event, called the Div II/III/Vet qualifier. If you were a D or lower and attended this qualifier, you automatically qualified for Div III. If you were veteran aged and attended this qualifier, you automatically qualified for Vet. Otherwise, the top 40% qualified for Div II.

That was then.

Now, because we restrict the number that qualify for Div III, if there is a single event, then the top 25% qualify for Div II. Now, count the number of fencers that attended who started with a D or lower classification. Then the top 25% of that number (for those fencers) qualify for Div III. All veterans who attend still automatically qualify for Vet. Note that in this single-event case, if you were a D or lower fencer and qualified for Div II, you automatically qualify for Div III since you'd be in the top-25% of both situations.

On the other hand, the division could hold a separate Div II and Div III qualifier. In this case, the top 25% of each qualifier qualify for the respective event. In this case, if you qualify for Div II and was a D or lower (and still is), you don't automatically qualify for Div III. You need to fence in the Div III event separately and qualify there.

There are benefits and drawbacks to both methods.

That's what I suspected, but was unsure. Thanks.

[edew]

Actually, even THAT'S not currently true in all cases.

32 fencers with 8 C's. None of the C's make the top 8.

We have 8 D2 qualifiers and 6 D3 qualifiers. The D-or-under fencers in 7th and 8th place have now qualified to D2 but not D3, based on the same tournament result.

-B

True. I think this was the situation that makes the combined event a drawback. It's highly unlikely, but certainly not impossible for this to occur. Such a scenario might suggest holding a separate event be better in that the 7th and 8th place fencers might have a second chance at qualifying for something.

[oiuyt]

True. I think this was the situation that makes the combined event a drawback. It's highly unlikely, but certainly not impossible for this to occur. Such a scenario might suggest holding a separate event be better in that the 7th and 8th place fencers might have a second chance at qualifying for something.

And here I thought you were a math person. You should be able to understand the theory better than that...

The ONLY way splitting the qualifiers can "help" is by allowing more unique people to qualify. The way it accomplishes that is by having fewer D-and-under people qualify to both D2 and D3. Given that there's considerable value to qualifying to more than a single event, I would say this effect is a net negative, especially when Nationals are far away (not the case for your division this year, but...).

At best it is neutral. And that's if EVERYONE attends both events, likely on different weekends. Start having people attend only one event and you start losing slots.

Let's say we separate the qualifiers. If the same people place in the same (relative) spots and everyone attends both events then there is no change in who qualifies. Any other type of movement is a rob Peter to pay Paul zero-sum game. Nothing is gained.

7th and 8th place fencers might have a second chance at qualifying for something

A "second chance"? They've already qualified for D2. How does splitting give them a second chance at something?

-B

[KD5MDK]

I think the question actually had to do with the fact that not all Vets can fence in Div II/III Qualifiers.
Basically, Vets who are A's or B's have to qualify for Nationals by fencing in a NAC (the rule says "any NAC" so I assume it means not just a Veterans' NAC), or in their Sectional qualifier.
(of course, if you're a C or below in your second or third weapon, you can qualify for THAT one at your Divusion's II/III quals)

Are there any Veterans who are B or higher in all three weapons? Both guys exceptions that I know of who would seem likely are Cs in foil.

[wbowman]

Not that I can think of off the top of my head, but not all Veterans fence more than one weapon either (though it might be a higher percentage than the general fencing population -- would be an interesting statistic).

At any rate, I was just expanding on the previous answer about Vet qualifications.

[HDG]

Are there any Veterans who are B or higher in all three weapons? Both guys exceptions that I know of who would seem likely are Cs in foil.

Bill Becker: Foil - A07, Epee - B07, Saber - A07

[edew]

And here I thought you were a math person. You should be able to understand the theory better than that...

The ONLY way splitting the qualifiers can "help" is by allowing more unique people to qualify. The way it accomplishes that is by having fewer D-and-under people qualify to both D2 and D3. Given that there's considerable value to qualifying to more than a single event, I would say this effect is a net negative, especially when Nationals are far away (not the case for your division this year, but...).

At best it is neutral. And that's if EVERYONE attends both events, likely on different weekends. Start having people attend only one event and you start losing slots.

Let's say we separate the qualifiers. If the same people place in the same (relative) spots and everyone attends both events then there is no change in who qualifies. Any other type of movement is a rob Peter to pay Paul zero-sum game. Nothing is gained.



A "second chance"? They've already qualified for D2. How does splitting give them a second chance at something?

-B

They didn't qualify for Div III, so now, with a separate event, they can qualify for Div III as well.

[oiuyt]

They didn't qualify for Div III, so now, with a separate event, they can qualify for Div III as well.

Right, but only by removing the first shot at D3. Now the top 6 haven't qualified for D3 and are fighting it out a second time. Either way (at most) 6 of the 8 get both D2 and D3, and 2 are left with just D2.

-B

[mfp]

True. I think this was the situation that makes the combined event a drawback. It's highly unlikely, but certainly not impossible for this to occur. Such a scenario might suggest holding a separate event be better in that the 7th and 8th place fencers might have a second chance at qualifying for something.

As oiuyt pointed out, the 7th and 8th place fencers did qualify for something: Div II.

The much more likely scenario is where a division can lose qual spots by holding separate Div II and III events.

Let's skip the hypotheticals and look at an example at what actually happened in a division -- yours.

This years Men's Epee qual event had 39 fencers in it, 26 of whom were D and unders. If the event were run as a combined II/III event, the division would have qualified 10 Div II spots and 7 Div III spots. However the event wasn't run combined but as a separate Div II event so it qualified only the 10 Div II entries.

A Div III qual was held separately and afterwards, but only 24 fencers stuck around for it.

The end result is that your division only qualified 6, not 7 fencers for Div III.

[oso97]

I'll one up you for even screwier.

Our division has the greatest concentration of skilled WS fencers in the Southwest, by far, but not enough to qualify more than 3.

So, what happened this past weekend? The top three on that day qualified for Div II and Div III (the girls with "C"s decided to concentrate on Cadets and Juniors and graciously didn't fence so that someone else could have a shot at fencing a couple of events in San Jose). The kicker? The girl who took fourth is going to go to Sectionals and make top 8, easily, which means she'll have qualified for DivIA but not DivIII. Same situation happened last year (although it was a different fencer).

Now THAT is screwy.