Junior and Cadet World Championships 2008

[teacup]

This is the link for live results of the Junior and Cadet Worlds posted on the FIE website.

Cadet women's sabre and men's foil starts Sunday, April 6. It is not up yet but should be in a few hours.

http://live.fie.ch/

[KD5MDK]

Thank you!

[KD5MDK]

This is the link for live results of the Junior and Cadet Worlds posted on the FIE website.

Cadet women's sabre and men's foil starts Sunday, April 6. It is not up yet but should be in a few hours.

http://live.fie.ch/

The live (touch by touch) results are really cool. Diedro just beat Wheeler to make the L16. Shame two of our girls met in the first round.

David Willette is 1st seed coming out of pools, with the results incomplete. Jeremy Goldstein is 5th and Alex Massialas is 10th.

[pigeonmeister]

Where are the French and Chinese?!

[the highlander]

It is 8-13 right now between #1 Willette and # 32 Russian Arslanov, Goldstein was 6th after pools, Massialas was 16th, but lost his first DE to make 32.

[the highlander]

Oww shuckks. #1 Willette just lost to #32 Russian, 9-15 to make 16, can someone who saw the bout tell us what happened?

[lurkerdad]

At least the US still has Goldstein in the Top 8, still in the running.

http://live.fie.ch/resultats/fmc-in/tableaufinal.htm

Edit: Oh well, he lost to the Greek fencer. Still, a pretty good finish.

[pigeonmeister]

Meanwhile, we have a British fencer into the semis!!!

Don't feel so bad now about him beating me up 15-7, last time we fenced!

[epeemike81]

WE: Caldwell out in the 32, Bassa and D'Agostino fencing in the 16.

-m

[teacup]

Unfortunately, Bassa and D'Agostino didn't make top 8.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Internet spotty, risotto not creamy. That's the news.

Oh, fencing, right...

After the first couple of days, it's been rough for the new crop of cadets. The US team has had the benefit in past World Championships of a number of multi-year cadets who have now aged out, and our new cadets are finding that their international peers are a little quicker and play the distance games a little better than the cadets one finds at the Albuquerque NAC.

The Cadet WS fencers in particular now know that their rigid arm, regular cadence footwork on the attack just gets them picked off in prep. Something new to take home and work on for next season.

I'm hoping I'm not going to get an Inquartata "Junior Curmudgeon-in-Training" merit badge here, but for the last two Cadet/JR Worlds, certain members of the US squad need to remember that they are representing the USA, not a soccer hooligan's club.

Running up and down the halls for hours, shrieking at the top of their lungs, tossing furniture, repeatedly slamming doors near midnight and flooding bathrooms is not quite the image projection I think US Fencing had in mind for our athletes when they were appointed to the Team. The athletes fencing the next day desperately need their sleep, as do the other, non-American guests at the hotel. Based on the fencing results so far, no one gets a celebratory pass, either. Mouthing off to the impromptu hall monitors should be right out, but apparently that's part of the package, as well.

At some point, the USFA is going to have to get serious about sending some of these athletes home before their event, so that everyone gets the message as to what's appropriate behavior, and what's not.

OK...day three in progress for the cadets, fingers crossed for happy results!

[the highlander]

Capt. Slo-mo brought up a very important issue, particularly true for the Cadet WF. Lately, the USFA has been sending a lot of Cadet WF girls to the European circuit, basically anybody who can afford can go. What happens is by their sheer number, mathematically, a lot of times, they end up fencing each other in the DE's. Their only exposure to their international peers is the 4 or 5 short 5 touch bouts. They do not get the benefit from facing a Russian, or Italian, in a 15 touch bout and thus grab the opportunity to work on their skills. etc. while out there.

What happens is you have Albuquerque transported to a remote corner of Europe, albeit much more expensive, strange food, weird lnguage, etc.

My son in Cadet MF knows that for him to have the chance to get exposed to his international peers, he has to train really hard, do well locally and be in the Top 16 in NPS. There is no favoritism here, there is a local selection process in place like in all other sports. All other European countries, except when they are the host maybe, limit their entries to their top girls and thus maximize the benefit to their fencing programs. It is only the US that sends a busload of girls over with very high probability of them fencing each other.

Whatever the rationale for this is other than bragging rights for more parents, maybe, it does not serve the future of the US Fencing program and should be addressed very soon.

[downunder]

Capt. Slo-mo brought up a very important issue, particularly true for the Cadet WF. Lately, the USFA has been sending a lot of Cadet WF girls to the European circuit, basically anybody who can afford can go. What happens is by their sheer number, mathematically, a lot of times, they end up fencing each other in the DE's. Their only exposure to their international peers is the 4 or 5 short 5 touch bouts. They do not get the benefit from facing a Russian, or Italian, in a 15 touch bout and thus grab the opportunity to work on their skills. etc. while out there..

I really don't think this is as big of an issue as you think. I refereed a girls cadet foil event in Jena, Germany this year, and every team was sending a buckletload of fencers and I refereed plenty of US fencers fencing other nations.

I cannot understand the criticism for sending sixteen or twenty fencers when the total entry is over 200.

On that note your girls are fencing each other in the semi final this evening which will be your first and second medals of the championships. They must be doing something right .

It is only the US that sends a busload of girls over with very high probability of them fencing each other.

That's really not true. Britain sends at least 16 fencers and plenty of other countries have very big squads.

[teacup]

Michael Raynis is fencing now to get into the top eight. Yergler and Kelley were out in the round of 32.

Unfortunately, he lost.

Prescod and Kiefer are both in the 4 in women's foil. They will have to fence each other.

[T]

Capt. Slo-mo brought up a very important issue, particularly true for the Cadet WF. Lately, the USFA has been sending a lot of Cadet WF girls to the European circuit, basically anybody who can afford can go. What happens is by their sheer number, mathematically, a lot of times, they end up fencing each other in the DE's. Their only exposure to their international peers is the 4 or 5 short 5 touch bouts. They do not get the benefit from facing a Russian, or Italian, in a 15 touch bout and thus grab the opportunity to work on their skills. etc. while out there.

On the other hand, if you can't beat your American opponent in Europe, then you don't earn the right to fence the next Italian, Russian, etc. I totally understand that it is a real expensive learning experience to travel half-way across the world and get knocked out by a fellow American (just like traveling all the way to a NAC and get knocked out by a club-mate). Going to international events, regardless of who you get knocked out by, has a learning quality all by itself. Granted, the learning quality would be higher if everyone got to fence the maximum number of bouts but that is not what competitions are about.

If your total European fencing experience is based on going to a weekend competition, you are likely to never break through to the top level. There are a few exceptions to this but for most people, you need to do more than go to the weekend tournament a couple of times a year. By far the best route is to go to 2 events on consecutive weekends and fence as hard as possible at some local club during the week (and this does not include fencing your fellow Americans at an American training camp in Europe). You will likely learn more from this experience than during the tournament.

Yes, this means missing more time from school, etc. but choices have to be made based on your priorities and goals. American fencers will not develop comprehensive games that work against their European counterparts by fencing other Americans. They need European opponents and just as in the US, competitions are not the time for learning new things. Club-practice is where this should take place.

At some point, the USFA might consider inviting another country's (or 2) top cadets over to a training camp. This might be expensive but it would most likely be cheaper than sending 16 kids to a cadet event.

For those parents who have cadet fencers.... which would you rather do?

Let's say you are going to spend $2000 to send your kid to a cadet international event for the weekend (and you go along with them because you don't want them to go alone).

Instead, let's say you invite the top 4 Polish and top 4 Ukranians (plus 1 coach each for a total of 10 people) to the US for a cadet camp over Christmas/New Years break and you had to pay for their trip to (for the sake of argument) Colorado Springs. Which one would you rather pay for? The weekend in Germany at the cadet international or (your share of) the week in Colorado for the Ukranian and Polish teams (and your kid too)? If it is points you're after, the week could culminate in a cadet Group II event.

[teacup]

The cadet events in Germany have four sets of pools and repachage at 64, so even though there are times the US fencers may have to fence each other, overall the fencing opportunity is quite extensive.

There really isn't a cadet circuit in the US.

If money is an issue, in some cases depending on where the US event is held, even with the high euro it may cost almost the same to travel to a European cadet event as it does to a US national event. If cost is about the same or just a little more, isn't it better experience for a cadet fencer to fence for potentially two days against other cadet fencers than a domestic Div I domestic event?

(Div 1 ME now has close to 300 fencers. Some cadet fencers may not get that much experience compared to an international cadet designated.)

[epeemike81]

Capt. Slo-mo brought up a very important issue, particularly true for the Cadet WF. Lately, the USFA has been sending a lot of Cadet WF girls to the European circuit, basically anybody who can afford can go. What happens is by their sheer number, mathematically, a lot of times, they end up fencing each other in the DE's. Their only exposure to their international peers is the 4 or 5 short 5 touch bouts. They do not get the benefit from facing a Russian, or Italian, in a 15 touch bout and thus grab the opportunity to work on their skills. etc. while out there.

What happens is you have Albuquerque transported to a remote corner of Europe, albeit much more expensive, strange food, weird lnguage, etc.

Yes this is CLEARLY to blame for our poor results in Cadet Women's Foil. Where was that third medal???

-m

[Violin]

Internet spotty, risotto not creamy. That's the news.

Oh, fencing, right...

After the first couple of days, it's been rough for the new crop of cadets. The US team has had the benefit in past World Championships of a number of multi-year cadets who have now aged out, and our new cadets are finding that their international peers are a little quicker and play the distance games a little better than the cadets one finds at the Albuquerque NAC.

The Cadet WS fencers in particular now know that their rigid arm, regular cadence footwork on the attack just gets them picked off in prep. Something new to take home and work on for next season.

I'm hoping I'm not going to get an Inquartata "Junior Curmudgeon-in-Training" merit badge here, but for the last two Cadet/JR Worlds, certain members of the US squad need to remember that they are representing the USA, not a soccer hooligan's club.

Running up and down the halls for hours, shrieking at the top of their lungs, tossing furniture, repeatedly slamming doors near midnight and flooding bathrooms is not quite the image projection I think US Fencing had in mind for our athletes when they were appointed to the Team. The athletes fencing the next day desperately need their sleep, as do the other, non-American guests at the hotel. Based on the fencing results so far, no one gets a celebratory pass, either. Mouthing off to the impromptu hall monitors should be right out, but apparently that's part of the package, as well.

At some point, the USFA is going to have to get serious about sending some of these athletes home before their event, so that everyone gets the message as to what's appropriate behavior, and what's not.

OK...day three in progress for the cadets, fingers crossed for happy results!

Now why would anyone think that their behavior at the World Championships would be any different that their behavior at the Cadet/Junior World Cup Events.......Same behavior - same result - same action taken. The "code of Conduct" they're supposed to abide by (under vile threats) isn't worth the paper it's printed on......
It's really too bad that a very few fencers can tarnish the image of all US fencers and fencing....they either need to be sent home or not allowed to go.

[pigeonmeister]

Did they boycott the championships for some reason? What's the story????
ff

Word is that the French don't think U17 fencing is worth the time or money- not sure how that squares though.

[epeemike81]

Word is that the French don't think U17 fencing is worth the time or money- not sure how that squares though.

the time or money it takes to go to Italy from France?? It's hard to not be worth that...

-m