random question re: development of ortho grips

[fencerchica]

I've had a random question idling in the back of my mind for while. I've frequently heard people from the more classical end of the spectrum, who were not fans of pistol grips (for foil or epee), issue a comment along these lines:

"If pistol grips are so optimal, why weren't they developed hundreds of years ago instead of just in the past few decades? If there were an advantage involved, wouldn't duellists, whose very lives were at risk, have wanted to have the best? People weren't idiots back then, and surely would've adopted pistol grips if they actually were better."

Now, although I learned to fence on French for my first couple of years, I love my size small Viscontis - I certainly don't need any persuading that pistol grips are the way to go for foil and, unless you're a pommeler, for epee as well. But I don't have an answer to the question posed above.

Is it that, were we fencing all classical or SCA-style, French or maybe Italian actually would be better suited to that technique than a pistol grip would? That's about the only thing I can think of off the top of my head. Thoughts? Just curious.

[tdwg83]

It is all a matter of the metallurgy available. Orthos are formed by pouring molten metal into a mold. While this could be done "hundreds of years ago", it has been refined to be more reliable in the last century or so. Also the process for creating molds for such unique shapes is newer still. French and Italian grips are simply easier to make. Also standardizing threads for tangs and hex nuts is current as of the Industrial Revolution.

[KidLazy]

*snip*Is it that, were we fencing all classical or SCA-style, *snip*

That's not fencing, it barely qualifies as moving.

[Pescados666]

I doubt that they needed it. They had no reason to make one since they thought their various stick shaped grips were fine. There's probably a better grip design out there then the pistols we have now. We are happy with the ones we have and arn't developing any more. Atleast, that's my guess.

[noodle]

"If pistol grips are so optimal, why weren't they developed hundreds of years ago instead of just in the past few decades? If there were an advantage involved, wouldn't duellists, whose very lives were at risk, have wanted to have the best? People weren't idiots back then, and surely would've adopted pistol grips if they actually were better."

logical fallacy: appeal to tradition.

using the same logic, you could say that drilling holes in your head or bloodletting is a much better medical technique because if it wasn't any good, wouldn't they have done something better, since people weren't idiots back then?

or, that swords and horses are the best way to wage a war, because if guns and tanks and airplanes and bombs were better, wouldn't they have invented them and used them back then, since people weren't idiots back then?


technology advances, we've found that pistol grips are efficient and effective. frankly, people WERE idiots back then.

[irishfolker]

Surprisingly enough, trepanning (making holes in the head) and bloodletting are still used, just not for nearly as many conditions as they used to. There's even a company in Great Britain that breeds medical leeches.

[noodle]

Surprisingly enough, trepanning (making holes in the head) and bloodletting are still used, just not for nearly as many conditions as they used to. There's even a company in Great Britain that breeds medical leeches.

leeches have valid uses, especially in reattaching body parts by using their suction to bring blood flow back into the part.

bloodletting and trepanning also do happen to have minor benefits, which almost always are outweighed by the downsides. however, some people still do them.

just like some people still use the grips

[piste off]

There's even a company in Great Britain that breeds medical leeches.

Here we call them pharmaceutical sales reps.

Rick

[Hauptman]

"frankly, people WERE idiots back then."

And how are people any different today? You were doing so well up until then...

[Barry Paul]

Just because most fencers don't use a French grip does not definitely mean that French grips are not as good. It also depends on the style of fencing. Pistol grip good for flick hits but maybe not so good for classical French fencing.There is a herd mentality it such matters.

What would be interesting is a proper sports science project where facts can be found rather than opinion discussed.

[OROD]

"If pistol grips are so optimal, why weren't they developed hundreds of years ago instead of just in the past few decades? If there were an advantage involved, wouldn't duellists, whose very lives were at risk, have wanted to have the best?"

You are comparing fencing to sword fighting. Pistol grips are used in fencing. I would imagine that if foils were much bulkier and heavier, that a pistol grip might not be the best thing to have on it.

"People weren't idiots back then, and surely would've adopted pistol grips if they actually were better."

I'm sure most people were idiots back then, just like they are today. But regardless, there's this thing called progress, maybe you've heard of it. It's the process by which knowledge and technology advance with time. Do I really have to explain this?

.

[Barry Paul]

Just because most fencers don't use a French grip does not definitely mean that French grips are not as good. It also depends on the style of fencing. Pistol grip good for flick hits but maybe not so good for classical French fencing.There is a herd mentality it such matters.

What would be interesting is a proper sports science project where facts can be found rather than opinion discussed.

[parrythis]

"frankly, people WERE idiots back then."

And how are people any different today? You were doing so well up until then...

It is not so much that they were idiots, as they were uninformed - ignorant, meaning "not having the knowledge", and not meaning "stupid", as in "unable to learn". Lacking things like the Internet, e-mail, TV, radio, etc., the flow of information and knowledge was mind-numbingly slow compared to what it is today. The common man could not find out what the few educated people were discovering very easily.

After all, we are talking about a time when people thought that the world was flat - because that is what they were told. Not stupid, not idiots, just uninformed, with no way of correcting the situation.

[OROD]

It is not so much that they were idiots, as they were uninformed - ignorant, meaning "not having the knowledge", and not meaning "stupid", as in "unable to learn". Lacking things like the Internet, e-mail, TV, radio, etc., the flow of information and knowledge was mind-numbingly slow compared to what it is today. The common man could not find out what the few educated people were discovering very easily.

After all, we are talking about a time when people thought that the world was flat - because that is what they were told. Not stupid, not idiots, just uninformed, with no way of correcting the situation.

An ignorant idiot is still an idiot.

.

[noodle]

After all, we are talking about a time when people thought that the world was flat - because that is what they were told. Not stupid, not idiots, just uninformed, with no way of correcting the situation.

what made them idiots is the refusal to believe the possibility that the world might not be flat. people were killed for suggesting that the world might not be flat.

[keith]

what made them idiots is the refusal to believe the possibility that the world might not be flat. people were killed for suggesting that the world might not be flat.

oh for the days inaccurate hyperbole was a capital offense.

[OROD]

what made them idiots is the refusal to believe the possibility that the world might not be flat. people were killed for suggesting that the world might not be flat.

In a hundred years they'll be saying the same thing about us, only instead of "flat Earth" they'll use the words "climate change".

.

[noodle]

In a hundred years they'll be saying the same thing about us, only instead of "flat Earth" they'll use the words "climate change".

it'll take more than a hundred years, but maybe in 300 or so years, we'll all be comparatively idiotic.

[OROD]

it'll take more than a hundred years, but maybe in 300 or so years, we'll all be comparatively idiotic.

I think you underestimate the amount of damage we can do to the environment in 100 years... especially with China and India now getting into the fun.

.

[fencerchica]

logical fallacy: appeal to tradition.

using the same logic, you could say that drilling holes in your head or bloodletting is a much better medical technique because if it wasn't any good, wouldn't they have done something better, since people weren't idiots back then?

or, that swords and horses are the best way to wage a war, because if guns and tanks and airplanes and bombs were better, wouldn't they have invented them and used them back then, since people weren't idiots back then?


technology advances, we've found that pistol grips are efficient and effective. frankly, people WERE idiots back then.

Advances involving major technological leaps are one thing... but when you look at historical arms and armor, there's such infinite variety and specialization, it just seems odd that an orthopedic grip didn't catch on in the midst of all that. The point about the molding process being relatively recent is a good one, but couldn't one have produced at least a rudimentary pistol grip with a combination of rough metalcraft and leather wrappings? The Italian seems kind of like a precursor of an ortho grip, so perhaps if you just had something like that with a couple extra prongs welded on...

I'm still tending towards concluding that it must have had something to do with the style of fencing used back then, but I wonder what that would have been. I'm assuming that the discussion is limited to swords that were used as point weapons only, since when you bring in the edge, the pistol grip diminishes in usefulness. But there were still plenty of point-only weapons, historically, which would seem to have benefited from a pistol grip. Like those light "court swords" with the epee-like cross section and unsharpened edges, they seem like perfect candidates for a pistol grip.