random question re: development of ortho grips

[piste off]

I think you underestimate the amount of damage we can do to the environment in 100 years... especially with China and India now getting into the fun.

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Agreed... but is that also going be the thing that finally gets us all to seriously develop and use alternative/clean power?

I sure hope so.

100 years from now, I hope my children's children will view us as idiots for not doing something about it sooner.

Rick

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

It is all a matter of the metallurgy available. Orthos are formed by pouring molten metal into a mold. While this could be done "hundreds of years ago", it has been refined to be more reliable in the last century or so. Also the process for creating molds for such unique shapes is newer still. French and Italian grips are simply easier to make. Also standardizing threads for tangs and hex nuts is current as of the Industrial Revolution.

Aluminum was discovered in the early 1800eds, but it was not before 1886 until a method of simple extraction from its ore was found. Until then, it was costlier than gold.

Plastics came even later.

So, to produce a pistol grip a sword-producer in centuries before that would have to use another material. The only reasonable choices are either very hard wood, or steel. Wood - probably oak for an European swordsmith - can be whittled, but is quite possibly to weak for this use. If a grip breaks during blade contact in a fencing competition, it is a serious annoyance. However, in a war situation, it could easily be fatal.

A pistol grip could have produced by filing a steel block, but that would have been extremely time-consuming and thus costly.

Cast iron could have been used in a lost-wax process, but then the producer would have had to make a new wax model for each casting, limiting productivity.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[erik_blank]

A pistol grip could have produced by filing a steel block, but that would have been extremely time-consuming and thus costly.

Cast iron could have been used in a lost-wax process, but then the producer would have had to make a new wax model for each casting, limiting productivity.
Have a nice time!
Peter Gustafsson

Lost wax processes were often used for mass production of jewlery, flatware (tableware), bullets and other items, using a plaster, steel or other mold would easily allow the craftsmen to reproduce the wax forms and thus the grip with relative ease.

As for the initial creation of such a grip, I could easily envision a craftsman using soft wax to allow a person to custom fit the grip to the hand prior to casting it. Expensive I'm sure when the material is brass or silver and the process might take 3-4 tries...

[needle]

So, to produce a pistol grip a sword-producer in centuries before that would have to use another material. The only reasonable choices are either very hard wood, or steel.

What about bronze? It has been used in sword handles for many centuries... And if weight was a concern, it could be made hollow, techniques for doing bronze molds like that existed during renaissance for sure, maybe earlier.

I think OROD is spot on - pistol grip would simply not work for blade weight and dynamics of smallsword, and rapier. Ortho grips evolved as part of the sport, and keep evolving even now.

[rdg]

They had much different requirements that we do, hence a different design.

For example, many ancient grips were covered in eel skin or small chain. Both expensive I would presume. The reason was because the blade got very slick when covered in blood.

Secondly all epee was one touch. Finesse probably was an issue in a one-on-one duel, but try to fast draw a pistol grip and get it in the right position, while being attacked - much less get plugged in! Not very practical. If you look at some of the old manuscripts, power, strength, the ability to wrestle were all extremely important, and flicking would be practically useless in a fight.

Today, we have different expectations, hence a light, whippy weapon (even in epee) with a cute, little blunt point and a variety of grips for our non-lethal 15 touch bouts.

Sam

[Nolano]

I say ease of manufacturing.

Even with modern welding and molding, a pistol grip would be difficult to make without a factory of some sort. I can't even imagine how hard it would be to forge a pistol grip, and cast iron presents possible issues with brittleness.

Maybe someone had the idea, but it's unlikely they went to the effort to make it come to life.

[Hauptman]

What about sword-canes? I've seen examples with a curved handle that seem to be similar to a crude pistol grip...think along the line of the curved handle of a flint lock pistol. Presumably someone must have played with those weapons and made an evaluation.

I'd agree with those that point to function; a pistol grip may not be as effective with a heavier weapon or an edged weapon. Didn't point-only weapons come along rather late in the 19th century? That would put only 50 to 75 years between that development and a new style grip that would enhance an light, point-only weapon.

[AdamH]

It's probably hard to kill someone with a flick to octave and maybe the remise was held in a different light.

edit:

How come no knowledgeable types mention first ortho grip was produced around a century ago for someone with hand problems?

Also, compare favoured actions of french pommelers vs pistol grip in high level epee. Maybe pinkie touches weren't quite so valued.

Oh aye, electric scoring boxes.

[OROD]

I think OROD is spot on - pistol grip would simply not work for blade weight and dynamics of smallsword, and rapier. Ortho grips evolved as part of the sport, and keep evolving even now.

Exactly. It's like asking why the ancient Romans didnt develop rapiers. The weapons they used where designed for a certain style of combat... close-in, chaotic, ... For them a short stuby weapon was best. You also have to consider the window of time to develop (or evolve) a new grip. It could be that a pistol grip on a light rapier would work, but was there time for someone to develop such a radically different grip? Also, rapiers came at a time when swords where being fazed out as actual weapons and were becoming more of a historical and traditional artifact. It makes sense that in that type of environment people would not be actively trying to change things, and that as fencing moved away from a martial tradition to a sporting one, that this would be the time for change and innovation... and that's exactly what happened.

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