Finally!! Foil Mask news...

[GypsyScot]

Dos Santos sent us an email this morning contained therein was this...

2) Meeting between the SEMI Commission FIE and manufacturers at the Juniors and cadets world Championships
Acireale Italy

At Acireale the SEMI will promote a meeting with some manufacturers, on the
8th of April after lunch, with the following agenda:
- Presentation of a prototype of the new foil mask with bib as valid target
- Discussion with the manufacturers concerning the new rules.
- Transparent visor mask and security recommendations.
- Olympic Games and weapons` control
-The manufacturing of strips is subject to FIE approval.
- Others
I hope you can attend this meeting.

I wonder who did the prototype, anybody know?

[Barry Paul]

It is not the design requirements or whether there is a requirement/need for a positive link to the foil lame like the sabre head wire (IMO No it is not!)

The difficult question is at what level will this be required and how to introduce their use at competitions and which competition/which age group?

[aamct2]

Anyone heard anything about the results from this meeting?

[GypsyScot]

Not yet, did Barry go?

[Pescados666]

With this new target, are manufactuers going to have to make 2 type of FIE masks, if they don't go with an xchange type system.

[Alex_Paul]

Not yet, did Barry go?

Yes but I have not got the full gory details yet.

[GypsyScot]

Keep me apprised, old bean.

[Barry Paul]

Keep me apprised, old bean.

Ok Young whippersnapper!

Meeting of manufacturers and S.E.M.I. 08/04/2008.

At this meeting the question of implementing the new proposals for lame covered foil bibs starting Jan 2009 was discussed. (Please note; This is my recollection of what was said at the meeting and is not an official view or statement of the F.I.E.)

No firm proposal was made from the S.E.M.I. who wanted to have suggested solutions from the expert manufacturers.

P.B.T. and Negrini produced samples which gave a lame covering 20mm to 15mm * below the lowest part of the metal mask frame. When the mask is held vertically, the line of lame needs to be horizontal so the lame sewn on to the bib is curved.

Negrini proposed to sew Velcro on the bibs so a correctly sized lame sock could be added or not.

It was agreed that the most difficult problem is ensuring connectivity between the lame bib and the jacket. I explained after trials in the U.K. I believed no permanent wire was needed and by placing the lame 30 mm around the inside of the bib hits to the bib would always arrive as valid either due to existing contact between the bib and jacket or contact caused by the point pushing on the bib creating the contact. Others at the meeting though the lame would wear and fencers would lift their head to avoid being hit. I suggested every one should actually try fencing with such a bib.

Unfortunately the clinching remark from Eduardo De Santos was that the wireless system would require fixed electrical contact. So whatever solution is decided it must have, for the F.I.E., the possibility of a fixed electrical contact. (However I believe for training or non F.I.E. fencing a fixed wire will not be necessary)

It was agreed that some thing similar to the sabre mask to jacket wire would be required. It was also agreed that a wire fixed by crocodile clip (same as the one used presently) to a tab of lame attached to the bib (similar to the tab on the sabre lame) would cause a major problem with the lead being constantly knocked off.

Various proposal of types of wire and fitting were discussed and finally I suggested that all manufacturers should send in there proposed solution by the beginning of June (two months). Subsequently the S.E.M.I. would after consultation with the F.I.E. agree the best solution or solutions.

Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul.
* Exact measurement and tolerance to be confirmed.

[brtech]

I don't understand the wireless argument. Are they saying that the wireless system needs an connection to the bib independent of a connection to the lame?

That wouldn't surprise me too much, because that system is incredibly sensitive to lots of variables, and it may be that the bib having any form of intermittent connection with the lame, even if it was firmly connected when a point was scored, may throw off the circuit.

I'd be asking much more specific questions: what is the actual requirement?
The wire is a solution, what is the requirement.

Given the politics of the S.E.M.I, you may not be able to get the answer.

Barry, did the manufacturers and the S.E.M.I. have any reaction to the Negrini proposal? It would be something that would allow retrofit, and also would allow easier repair for non-Xchange style bibs.

[Barry Paul]

I don't understand the wireless argument. Are they saying that the wireless system needs an connection to the bib independent of a connection to the lame?

NO JUST THE CONECTION BETWEEN THE TWO NEEDS TO BE PERFECT (LESS THAN 1 OHM????? ALWAYS).

That wouldn't surprise me too much, because that system is incredibly sensitive to lots of variables, and it may be that the bib having any form of intermittent connection with the lame, even if it was firmly connected when a point was scored, may throw off the circuit.

I'd be asking much more specific questions: what is the actual requirement?
The wire is a solution, what is the requirement.

(FEEL FREE TO ASK)

Given the politics of the S.E.M.I, you may not be able to get the answer.

Barry, did the manufacturers and the S.E.M.I. have any reaction to the Negrini proposal? It would be something that would allow retrofit, and also would allow easier repair for non-Xchange style bibs.

NOTHING IS RULED IN OR OUT BUT I THINK THIS WILL BE AN ACCEPTABLE SOLUTION TO PART OF THE PROBLEM.

Unfortunately the wireless system requires the foil system to be less than about 2 ohms better 1 ohm which is regulation. So previously white lights appeared when the foil resistance was 50 ohms. Now it can go off at 2 plus ohms One Korean at the World Youth Champs had 5 red cards after all his foils failed.

[keith]

One Korean at the World Youth Champs had 5 red cards after all his foils failed.

Bet that made great TV.

[SJCFU#2]

Unfortunately the wireless system requires the foil system to be less than about 2 ohms better 1 ohm which is regulation. So previously white lights appeared when the foil resistance was 50 ohms. Now it can go off at 2 plus ohms.

When you say one ohm I'm guessing that you are only discussing the internal resistance of the foil itself. Otherwise I would anticipate a lot of problems due to the fact that the maximum allowable resistance for a lame is five ohms and the maximum allowable resistance for each line of the body cord is 1 ohm.

I also have to wonder about how reliable any system can be if one additional ohm of resistance can have that much affect, but maybe that's just me be a Luddite.

[deadender]

If there is going to be a passive link between the mask and the lame, does that mean that there will be metallic material on the inside of the bib? If so, will that create a chafing between the lamé and the inside of the bib, that could wear down the fabric and impair the conductivity of both?

[Hauptman]

"It was agreed that some thing similar to the sabre mask to jacket wire would be required. It was also agreed that a wire fixed by crocodile clip (same as the one used presently) to a tab of lame attached to the bib (similar to the tab on the sabre lame) would cause a major problem with the lead being constantly knocked off. "

I'm not sure I understand why this would be a major problem in foil but is acceptable in saber? Is there a fundamental difference that I'm missing?

[GypsyScot]

The mask cord if clipped to the bottom of the mask would get knocked off by a foil point, a sabre in a slashing motion will not hit it often enough for it to be a problem.

I've constructed a working prototype mask since Barry sent me his notes,thus far my design won't work with an XChange system easily. My design is sound I think I'll build a better prototype soon...

[Barry Paul]

When you say one ohm I'm guessing that you are only discussing the internal resistance of the foil itself. Otherwise I would anticipate a lot of problems due to the fact that the maximum allowable resistance for a lame is five ohms and the maximum allowable resistance for each line of the body cord is 1 ohm.

I also have to wonder about how reliable any system can be if one additional ohm of resistance can have that much affect, but maybe that's just me be a Luddite.

LUDDITE

[Pescados666]

The mask cord if clipped to the bottom of the mask would get knocked off by a foil point, a sabre in a slashing motion will not hit it often enough for it to be a problem.

I've constructed a working prototype mask since Barry sent me his notes,thus far my design won't work with an XChange system easily. My design is sound I think I'll build a better prototype soon...

I was thinking a metal button would work, but the fencers couldn't turn their head and it would come undone on something like a passata soto.

[Soberin]

Has any manufacturer proposed a transparent foil visor mask with factory installed lame-bib, so that fencers only have to buy one mask to meet all the rules?

[brtech]

I was thinking that if a wire was needed, then the best connector is a coil cord underneath the bib with a metal snap button on the bib and the collar. They make electrical connectors for snaps. They use them in, for example, static control mats to connect a wrist strap to the mat.

[Pescados666]

I was thinking that if a wire was needed, then the best connector is a coil cord underneath the bib with a metal snap button on the bib and the collar. They make electrical connectors for snaps. They use them in, for example, static control mats to connect a wrist strap to the mat.

Maybe have something like the self recoiling keychains that the wire goes into and on the center of that has a snap that connects to the lame. It would have to be somewhere inside the lame since a tip could easially rip that off.