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Old 03-27-2008, 09:04 PM   #1
dbl90
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Question Regarding Petitions

My division qualifiers are going to be held on the 20th April which is the second day of Passover. There's really no way I'd be able to attend my qualifiers due to the fact that it is Yom Tov (no work can be done). Would this be grounds to petition for entry into the summer nationals as I cannot attend the qualifier?
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:16 PM   #2
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But fencing is fun, not work?
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Old 03-27-2008, 11:10 PM   #3
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You didn't mention the events involved. For some events, Sectionals are an alternative.

Performance at Sectionals might be considered as evidence that you would have qualified if there had not been a conflict with Passover.
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Old 03-27-2008, 11:38 PM   #4
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Do not rely on this as official advice, but I can't think of any events that had trickle down qualificaton except maybe Cadet.
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Old 03-28-2008, 01:34 AM   #5
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Old 03-28-2008, 01:35 AM   #6
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It would just be for Div II. There's no trickle down for that event.

I've qualified in every past year...don't see why it'd be a problem. My question is more along the lines of does attending a religious event count as a reason to petition.

Last edited by dbl90 : 03-28-2008 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 03-28-2008, 04:30 AM   #7
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It absolutely does. Discounting everything else, it would be risking all kinds of legal hell (pun not intended) to deny a petition based on religious reasons.
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Old 03-28-2008, 09:08 AM   #8
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Hi!


First of all, the qualification process should be designed so that no one has a reasonable argument stating that he could not qualify due to non-fencing reasons.

Put otherwise, I think that a system which contains petitions to enter a restricted competition is an abomination. It increases the workload on the national office, it introduces unneeded subjectivity, it gives an opportunity for club politics to raise its ugly head, among other drawbacks.

It is presumably put in place in order to work as a safety valve for those who had valid reasons to claim: "I did not make it at the qualifiers, but the rest of my season shows that I should be qualified anyway!" That valid concern is better dealt with by having a qualification system which allows qualification from many different competitions, preferably all that are sanctioned (all over the country) and sufficiently strong. For each competition, the top-X should be directly qualified, those in places X+1 to Y should be put in a "for consideration" bucket, and those who place Y+1 or lower have to try at the next competition. At the end of the season, the qualification list comprises those who have placed in top-X in at least one competition, plus enough of the best of those in the "for consideration" bucket to fill out the qualification numbers. But I have written more about that in previous posts.

That said, if one must work within a system that uses petitions, then one should have quite specific rules about what constitutes valid reasons for petitioning. Personally, I think that those should be limited to:

1. Non-fencing reasons for why the petitioner was forced by law not to attend, reasons which do not reflect badly on his fencing ability. In these cases, the petitioner must show that his disobedience towards the entity which has forced him not to attend would carry a legal sanction. Examples would be jury duty, military service, and a few other specific cases.
2. Medical reasons which totally stopped attendance at the time of the qualifier, but not do anything to his fencing ability at the time of the restricted competition. Examples could be flu, mumps, short-term injury, etc.
3. Petitioner could not fence in qualifier, because he had to be part of its crew (BC, ref, armourer, general helper).
4. Petitioner was preoccupied with something that was in the greater good for society as a whole (not the petitioner himself), other than cases covered in #1. Examples could be blood-donation and the like.

Religious and other social obligations should definitely not be admissible as petition grounds. What next, petition because "Relatives wanted me to go to little Myra´s baptism/birthday party?" How many religions are there, and if one acknowledges the holy days of one, when does one stop? The Christian holidays are there in the public almanac already, and since they in several cases are work-free days, they should be used for competition, so that people do not use up their precious few holidays. That does not go for other religious holidays, though. However, fencing NGB´s are not religious organizations, and should not encumber themselves with accommodating them. The religious organizations would not return the favor - have you ever heard of churches saying: "we will not hold any services during Olympic Games/Superbowl/whatever, so that our sports-interested parishioners do not miss out. We will make up for that with extra services afterwards!" Ain´t gonna happen, and if they don´t want to do anything for us, why should we do it for them? It is just a perfect way to lose self-respect. To be religious is a choice, and part of all choices in life is to deselect something.

Whew. It is not often something on f.net makes me so steamed.

Anyway, those are my opinions looking in as an outsider.


Have a nice time!

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Old 03-28-2008, 09:26 AM   #9
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I'm just going to pretend I didn't read that.

dbl90 - I would definitely require something written from a religious authority documenting the date conflict and that for you to attend would be impermissible. Certainly to an outsider the classification of a fencing competition as "work" as opposed to recreation isn't immediately definitive, but that's a decision for you and your rabbi. With such suppporting documentation (and proof of likelyhood to qualify, etc.), I'd think you're an excellent candidate for qualification by petition.
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Old 03-28-2008, 10:22 AM   #10
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The obvious example to me would be Sandy Koufax....but he was getting paid to pay baseball....that IS work . You're talking about simply playing a game for fun....not getting paid.

i think you're safe....God'll forgive you.

But if in doubt, check with your rabbai
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Old 03-28-2008, 10:35 AM   #11
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I don't even know what to say to that - I'll pretend I did not read it either.

dbl90 - I think this is reasonable grounds for a petition and in truth it was in poor judgement on your division's part to put the event on the second night of Pesach. If you believe that fencing qualifies as work then by all means make the petition or have a discussion with your Rabbi if the touney does not interfere with your preparations of Seder. However I also understand that you could have issues with transportation, handling money or even using your equipment - there are other barriers. Your reason for petitioning is valid - you might say something to your divisional officers about the conflict so that in future years this does not happen again.
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Old 03-28-2008, 10:43 AM   #12
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Just a little trivia about Judiasm: on days where jews arent supposed to do work, it even involves things like using a light switch or cooking a meal. it even goes as far as to not let you to start your car.
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Old 03-28-2008, 10:44 AM   #13
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I don't even know what to say to that - I'll pretend I did not read it either.

dbl90 - I think this is reasonable grounds for a petition and in truth it was in poor judgement on your division's part to put the event on the second night of Pesach. If you believe that fencing qualifies as work then by all means make the petition or have a discussion with your Rabbi if the touney does not interfere with your preparations of Seder. However I also understand that you could have issues with transportation, handling money or even using your equipment - there are other barriers. Your reason for petitioning is valid - you might say something to your divisional officers about the conflict so that in future years this does not happen again.
Oooo....I'd forgotten about the possible technology restrictions....not being Jewish myself. (although I worked for Jewish attorneys for 8 years....I LOVED the high holy days...the Jews were gone, the Jewish AND Arab clients didn't call, and the Goy here could get caught up!!)



heh....maybe you could get a shabbes goy to fence for yo....
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Old 03-28-2008, 11:12 AM   #14
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Plus spending money, is also considered work, and my guess is that the division is requiring payment for the qualifier. If you're even a psuedo religious Jew, you're not going fencing on a Yom Tov (i.e. first and second day of Passover).

Yom Tov's are above Shabbas in terms of days you should not break Judiasm. I'll fence on Shabbas, but I wouldn't that first Sunday of Passover.
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Old 03-28-2008, 11:17 AM   #15
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Wow.... Divisionals on April 20th?

Looks like someone was out to get the Jews AND the Stoners.

Aren't both Jews and Stoners already paranoid enough?

Why must you tourture them?
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Old 03-28-2008, 11:46 AM   #16
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Wow.... Divisionals on April 20th?
2008 Plains Texas Division National Qualifiers
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Old 03-28-2008, 12:29 PM   #17
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I'm just going to pretend I didn't read that.

dbl90 - I would definitely require something written from a religious authority documenting the date conflict and that for you to attend would be impermissible. Certainly to an outsider the classification of a fencing competition as "work" as opposed to recreation isn't immediately definitive, but that's a decision for you and your rabbi. With such suppporting documentation (and proof of likelyhood to qualify, etc.), I'd think you're an excellent candidate for qualification by petition.
I doubt that a letter from a rabbi would be necessary, quite a few people are aware of Jewish religious customs.

My suggestion was intended to suggest that Sectionals participation would provide a contemporary "likelihood to qualify". If you beat up on the people who did qualify, or other fencers considered as equivalent, then you support your implicit contention that you would have qualified if you did not have a conflict due to religion.

There are people who cannot qualify because of injury, but they should appeal on that basis, not try to misuse another basis. Your participation in an alternative competition would counteract something like that. We don't know where you fence. I suggested Sectionals because they have a certain stature. There may be Opens in your or a nearby Division that would provide a similar reference. Except you hardly ever know for sure if the competition would be considered equivalent.

As far as why there are qualifiers scheduled on religious holidays, have some consideration for Division scheduling problems. When you include college meets, the multitude of qualifiers in so many age brackets and Divisions, the schedulers run out of weekends. Evidence of this is the desirable, but hard to attain, separation of Div II and Div III qualifiers. Or events scheduled on Easter Sunday, which others may consider a suitable reason to not participate.

I recommend your petition consist of a reference to the religious holiday and results from alternative competitions, including previous years and some close in time to the qualifier you will miss.
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Old 03-28-2008, 12:41 PM   #18
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I doubt that a letter from a rabbi would be necessary, quite a few people are aware of Jewish religious customs.
It couldn't hurt though. It makes the religious restriction part of the record, rather than relying on what someone at the National Office may or may not know about Judaism.

Beyond that, what fencerbill had to say about showing the results of equivalent competitions seems to be pretty solid advice.
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Old 03-28-2008, 12:48 PM   #19