Question Regarding Petitions

[KD5MDK]

We even involve bagels*.




*Are flamagels non-kosher?

[Mr Epee]

Think about this...

Marc Oshima, Soren Thompson, Chris O'Loughlin, Keith Smart.

Average person thinks: Japanese guy, Scandanavian Guy, Irish Guy, Black Guy.

The reality of the Fencing world? Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew.


I love this sport. I really do. Seriously, where else are you going to find that kind of diversity.

Our national office is fully aware of Jewish holidays and customs. Trust me.

[Zilverzmurfen]

This thread really shows the difference between my culture and the US culture, in Sweden noone would skip a competition due to religious beliefs.

And if they did, tough luck for them. *shrug*

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

This thread really shows the difference between my culture and the US culture, in Sweden noone would skip a competition due to religious beliefs.

And if they did, tough luck for them. *shrug*

My feeling is that Sweden has a Lutheran heritage. Do Lutherans have religious holidlays?

I wasn't the one who said there are many Jews involved in fencing. I will say that there are at least as many, if not more, lawyers.

[argonis]

Any thoughts on whether attending USACFCCs (the collegiate championship thing) would be a valid excuse? I know they say attending a conflicting NAC isn't a valid excuse, but since they didn't spell out other tournaments, I was hoping it might be a go :P Hard to choose letting down my team in favor of going to a 3-5 person event. Hopefully they'll place more emphasis on past results.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

This thread really shows the difference between my culture and the US culture, in Sweden noone would skip a competition due to religious beliefs.

And if they did, tough luck for them. *shrug*

Look up Sandy Koufax....Jewish American baseball pitcher in the 60s.

One of the all time greats....refused to pitch game one of the 65 World Series because it fell on Yom Kippur.

This was not any regular game...this was the world champs...(he DID pitch three of the 7 games, howerver)

[fencerX]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

How many religions are there, and if one acknowledges the holy days of one, when does one stop?

The list below is where the NJ State Board of Education draws the line. Well, except that "The list, however, is to be a minimum list. Boards of education, at their discretion, may add other days to the list for the schools of their districts":

WHEREAS, the district board of education has the right to add any bona fide religious holiday to the list for its own schools; now therefore be it,

RESOLVED that the State Board of Education adopts the following list of religious holidays for the 2007-2008 school year:

September 1 Day of Ascension (Isra and Miraj) (Islamic) First Consecration of the Guru Granth Sahib ji, the Sikh Scripture
September 7 His Holiness Sakya Trizin's birth date (Buddhist)
September 7 Ganesha Chaturthi (Hindu)
September 13-14 Rosh Hashanah (Jewish New Year)
September 13 Ramadan begins
September 14 The Exaltation of the Holy Cross (Eastern, Greek, Russian Orthodox)
September 19 The Night of Power 9 (Laylatul Qadr) (Islamic)
September 22 Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) (Jewish)
September 23 Feast of Trumpets (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)
September 27-28 Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) (Jewish)
October 2 Day of Atonement (World Wide Church of God, UnitedChurch of God and Global Church of God)
October 4 Shemini Atzeret (Eighth Day of Sukkot) (Jewish)
October 5 Simhat Torah (Rejoicing of the Law) (Jewish)
October 7-13 First Day through Seventh Day Feast of Tabernacles (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)
October 13 Eid-al-Fitr (Islamic)/September 30 - Dussera (Hindu)
October 14 Last Great Day (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)
October 20 Birth of the Bab (Baha'i)
October 20 Joint-Sovereignty of Guru Granth and Guru Panth declared to Guide the Sikh people
October 20 Guruship of Guru Granth Sahib ji declared by 10th Guru (Sikh)
October 20 - 23 Deepavali (Hindu)
October 31 Reformation Day (Protestant, Lutheran)
November 1 All Saints Day (Roman Catholic, Protestant & Lutheran)
November 2 All Souls Day (Roman Catholic)
November 12 Birth of the Baha'u'llah (Baha'i)
November 15 Guru Nanak Dev ji's birth date (Sikh)
November 24 Guru Tegh Bahadur dev ji's Martyrdom (Sikh)
December 5 First Day of Hanukkah (Jewish)
December 8 Feast of the Immaculate Conception (Roman Catholic)
December 8 Bodhi Day (Buddhist)
December 20 Eid-al-Adha (Day of Sacrifice) (Islamic)
December 25 Christmas (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Eastern, Greek and Russian Orthodox)
December 26 Kwanzaa
January 1 New Year's Day
January 5 Gukru Gobind Singh ji's birth date (Sikh)
January 6 Feast of the Epiphany (Roman Catholic, Eastern, Greek and Russian Orthodox)
January 6 Christmas (Armenian)
January 10 Muharram (New Year) (Islamic)
January 14 Makara Sankranti (Hindu)
January 19 Day of Ashurah (10th Day) (Islamic)
January 22 Mahayana New Year (Buddhist)
February 4 Cartman's Birthday (Satan and Christ face off in a boxing match)
February 5 Shrove Tuesday
February 6 Ash Wednesday (Roman Catholic, Protestant)
February 7 New Year (Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese)
February 19 Bright Monday (Eastern, Greek and Russian Orthodox)
March 4 Holi (Hindu)
March 6 Maha Shivaratri (Hindu)
March 10 Lent (Eastern Orthodox)
March 19 Chandramana Yugadi
March 20 Holy Thursday (Roman Catholic, Protestant)
March 21 Birthday of the Prophet Muhammad (Islamic)
March 21 Feast of Naw-Ruz (Baha'i and Iranian New Year, also Persian New Year and Heritage Day)
March 21 Good Friday (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, Eastern, Greek and Russian Orthodox))
March 21 Purim (Jewish)
March 21 Sikh New Year/Holla Mohalla
March 27 Rama Navami (Hindu)
March 22 Lord's Evening Meal
March 30 Chandramana Yugardi (Hindu)
April 2 Passover (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)
April 3 First Day of Feast of Unleavened Bread or Passover (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)
April 6-14 Rama Navami (Hindu)
April 14 Souramana Yugadi (Hindu)
April 14 Khalsa formation day and Vaisakhi
April 20-21 First Two Days of Pesach (Passover) (Jewish)
April 21 First Day of Ridvan (Baha'i)
April 24 Memorial Day (Armenian)
April 25 The 11th Panchen Lama's birthday (Buddhist)
April 27 Good Friday (Lutheran, Eastern, Greek and Russian Orthodox)
April 26 -27 Last Two Days of Pesach (Passover) (Jewish)
May 1 Ascension Day (Eastern Orthodox, Greek and Russian Orthodox, Roman Catholic & Protestant)
May 2 The 12th Day of Ridvan (Baha'i)
May 2 Buddha's birthday (Buddhist)
May 23 Declaration of the Bab (Baha'i)
May 27 Day of Pentecost (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)
May 29 Ascension of Baha'u'llah (Baha'i)
June 9-10 Shavuot (Feast of Weeks) 2 days (Jewish)
June 16 Guru Arjun Dev ji's Martyrdom (Sikh)
June 26 His Holiness the 17th Gyalawa Karmapa's (Ugyen Trinley Dorje) birth date (Buddhist)
____________________________________
Lucille E. Davy, Commissioner
Secretary, NJ State Board of Education

[Phaeton]

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

This thread really shows the difference between my culture and the US culture, in Sweden noone would skip a competition due to religious beliefs.

And if they did, tough luck for them. *shrug*

It is a cultural thing. The United States has a concept of freedom religion, while I feel Europe is heavily rooted in the idea of freedom from religion. The United States was founded by a bunch of religious loonies, among other groups. Americans are far more religious, or really the New World in general. South America seems far more catholic to me than many European countries in terms of devotion and worship.

If the point of the Summer Nationals is to give the best fencers in a division to fence the best in another, it detracts from the entire experience to kick out a chunk of fencers due to when the event is timed.

The division really shoudln't be scheduling qualifiers on passover. There are really six or so days a year that Jews can't fence.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by fencerX

The list below is where the NJ State Board of Education draws the line. Well, except that "The list, however, is to be a minimum list. Boards of education, at their discretion, may add other days to the list for the schools of their districts":

WHEREAS, the district board of education has the right to add any bona fide religious holiday to the list for its own schools; now therefore be it,

RESOLVED that the State Board of Education adopts the following list of religious holidays for the 2007-2008 school year:

<Humongous list>
____________________________________
Lucille E. Davy, Commissioner
Secretary, NJ State Board of Education

Wow!
How do they do any schoolwork done? How can you, as a teacher, ensure that your class is moving forward when some members of it are away several times a week? Lucille got herself busy, that is for sure!

If the NJFA is to avoid all those dates, how can it plan anything?

For comparison, here are the school dates for my county:

Originally Posted by Kristianstads kommun

Student study year: 070815 - 080605
Fall season: 070815 - 071220
Spring season: 080108 - 080605
Holidays:
week 44 071029 - 071102
week 8 080218 - 080222
week 13 080325 - 080328
080502
Four more days, to be decided by the individual schools.
Teacher work year: 070808 - 080611
Financial year of school board: 070806 - 080805

Student who wish to take a leave to celebrate religious holidays not within those holiday dates will have to apply for leave from their individual teacher, who grants or denies leave entirely at his discretion. There is no appeal (other than truancy, that is!).


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by Phaeton

It is a cultural thing. The United States has a concept of freedom religion, while I feel Europe is heavily rooted in the idea of freedom from religion.

For many European countries - BINGO!


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[fatfencer]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

If the point of the Summer Nationals is to give the best fencers in a division to fence the best in another, it detracts from the entire experience to kick out a chunk of fencers due to when the event is timed.

The division really shoudln't be scheduling qualifiers on passover. There are really six or so days a year that Jews can't fence.

Jeez. Personally I think that if a division wishes to respect those boundaries that it should do so, but Fencing is, like many activities in the US, a secular activity. If Football had Jews, are you suggesting that the NFL not hold any games or exempt their players from contractual obligations just because they are Jews??? According to your logic if Passover were the first week in February we'd be @@@@-ed. No Super Bowl...

There are so many issues like space rental, fees, etc that screw up a Division event that I dont think most divisions can do something like this for such a small minority. Furthermore, although I freely admit I'm not an expert on Judaism I can't believe the 'no work' rule during passover actually applies to a fun pasttime like Fencing. Could be though... but then it could be an interpretative thing too. I cant see many Hasids fencing period, let alone during passover.

I think Jews or any other minority should do whats right for them... including deciding whether or not fencing is ok for them during Holidays.

I think Alex Paul is a Jew... his masks have built-in Yarmulkes....

Fatfencer

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

if Passover were the first week in February we'd be @@@@-ed. No Super Bowl...

and thousands of football widows would cheer!

I think Alex Paul is a Jew... his masks have built-in Yarmulkes....

Yes....but are they FIE yarnulkes??

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

My feeling is that Sweden has a Lutheran heritage. Do Lutherans have religious holidlays?

This is true and we do indeed have religious holidays. The difference though is that those of the religious holidays that we celebrate (I'm mainly thinking easter and christmas here) we celebrate as a part of our culture and heritage -- not because they are religious holidays.

For us it's mainly a couple of nice days off from work to spend together with friends and family.

Originally Posted by Phaeton

It is a cultural thing. The United States has a concept of freedom religion, while I feel Europe is heavily rooted in the idea of freedom from religion.

I suppose you could put it that way. The rest of Europe aside -- especially southern/eastern Europe -- up here we think of religion as sort of obsolete.

We indeed do have 'Freedom of Religion' in Sweden but it should be noted that we are first and foremost a christian (protestant) nation -- hence the cross on our flag -- and so most public holidays etc. are based on religious christian events.

Unlike you in the US we have no holidays named after/dedicated to persons like presidents, Christofer Columbus etc.

[Phaeton]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

Jeez. Personally I think that if a division wishes to respect those boundaries that it should do so, but Fencing is, like many activities in the US, a secular activity. If Football had Jews, are you suggesting that the NFL not hold any games or exempt their players from contractual obligations just because they are Jews??? According to your logic if Passover were the first week in February we'd be @@@@-ed. No Super Bowl...

There are so many issues like space rental, fees, etc that screw up a Division event that I dont think most divisions can do something like this for such a small minority. Furthermore, although I freely admit I'm not an expert on Judaism I can't believe the 'no work' rule during passover actually applies to a fun pasttime like Fencing. Could be though... but then it could be an interpretative thing too. I cant see many Hasids fencing period, let alone during passover.

I think Jews or any other minority should do whats right for them... including deciding whether or not fencing is ok for them during Holidays.

I think Alex Paul is a Jew... his masks have built-in Yarmulkes....

Fatfencer

It's not about being a Hasidic Jew. Passover is a familial event. People generally spend it with loved ones. Even more secular jews are probably off with family even if they are not working.

Work is not "work" in english, but really anything that would take the mind off the celebration of the holiday. And if carrying ANYTHING from one place to another outside of a house or synagogue is work, as is starting a car, or turning on a light, or picking a flower, or tearing a yogurt lid if it has words...then I'm pretty sure fencing more than qualifies.

I don't think it's fair that the USFA mandate events can't be held on certain dates, but the division should try not to have events on holidays. It's simple respect. If they do end up having events on holidays, athletes should be allowed to petition. Petitioning doesn't take away from anyone else, and quite frankly it can raise the level of a competition, and that's really all I want to see: more good fencing.

[Mr Epee]

I can't speak about Sweden....

But I can speak about Finalnd.

In Finland, they have a "State Church" (Lutheran of course).

As a basic citizen, you are a member of the state church and an additional tax is collected from you (by the state) to support the church. You can, however, resign from the state church and avoid this additional tax (around 1% IIRC).

I don't recall the full result of resigning from the church... but it involves things like not being able to be a formal god-parent.... and things like that.

P.S. My favorite thing about Sweden is Tommy Salo....

I was sitting in a room of Swedes that night and had a great time.....


PPS... Den Glider in.

Hyva Valko-Venaja