Too many coaches, and they're all wrong!

[damianip]

Find another coach or pick one and listen to him/her for a while.

I'd see which coach has produced the fencers with the best results and try to stick with that one. If you can't get along with that one, start looking for one you can.

Realize, however, that if you have a coach who has produced good fencers, you should let the teaching "work" for a while before dismissing it because you don't like it. It may be that you just don't understand it or you haven't developed the distance, tactical sense and timing to accompany the technical skill you have been learning

If you are only in your second season, I'd suggest less coach hopping and more fencing and lessons.

Paolo

[eac]

It sounds like you want to win, and win now, rather than in say, 1980. Find a coach whose students win now, nationally or internationally, in USFA competition.

- Coaches whose students win in NCAA competition frequently owe much of their students' abilities to the coaches who coached them before they went to college; relatively few fencers, even high-level ones, improve while fencing in the NCAA.
- Coaches whose students win locally but not nationally are frequently bad coaches who produce crappy fencers who win because good people don't go to their local tournaments.
- Coaches who were great fencers back in the day, like in 1980 in the USSR, or who were great coaches back in the day, but whose students do not win now, are generally bad coaches who are out of touch with modern reality.
- Classical coaches, like people who tell you to have your back arm up, are frequently (but not always) weak, and focused more on being classical than on winning.

So, avoid all of those, and check the National Rolling Points Standings in Div I Men's Epee and count the number of fencers from the coach in question are on that list, and how high they are. Also check the Junior points standings, for half credit.

[WJM]

Be coached by the coach you BELIEVE in.

Be coached by the coach who BELIEVES in you (honestly, not like a piece of meat, although as a beginner, it's unlikely any of them would yet view you that way)

Be coached by the coach you can work best with. Honestly as a fencer for 21 years, and a professional coach for 13 or so, I've seen thousands of fencers being coached by the "greatest coaches" who turned out terrible, only to go to some "lesser" coach and improve to a national level. You'll get the most out of a coach who has the interest and desire to transmit their teachings to you. Sometimes, a coach who doesn't have the world-class creds isn't a lesser coach, sometimes they are. There's also a lot of "great" coaches who are terrible coaches, and occasionally human beings. I feel pretty sure that a little time, you'll be able to easily tell who's who. Let yourself.

[edew]

I used to think that proper form is essential until I saw a video of saber fencing with Kende Fodor from Hungary. He has the most gawdawful stance and movement, but he killed Charikov in the team events. Then I figured, whatever it takes to win. If your coach(es) don't give a reason for being in a particular position, then it's irrelevant and move to another. If your coach explains why your arm should be up (or down or sideways or however you want to carry it), and the rationale makes sense, then stick with that coach.

Whatever works, works. That's my motto.

[Jason]

eac is completely correct.

But for god's sake, you're in your twenties, learn to make a decision.

[Phaeton]

I'm pretty sure EVERY Eastern European coach coached an Olympic foil team at some point

There's a lot of BS name and credential dropping that goes on. Verify, Verify, Verify!

[Durando]

Originally Posted by The Blank from Dick Tracy

He is heavy on parry-ripostes, beats, and binds.

Effective in low level fencing. Largely irrelevant higher up. I think such an emphasis leads to a narrower tactical repertoire and positive reinforcement of poor distance. The fact that his students are up-and-coming speaks well of his students and only secondarily of him. B apparently knows how to stay out of the way, or reinforce, motivated athletes.

Originally Posted by The Blank from Dick Tracy

Coach C (the coach at the club I fence at currently) teaches a "point at wrist, thumb at 12, weight evenly on feet, chest parallel to strip, back arm up, torso straight up on lunges" en guarde. He likes to teach little flicks to the upper arm and is heavy on tempo, using half-steps and half-extensions frequently. He used to coach the foil Olympic team in a Soviet bloc country.

I cannot imagine what you mean by "chest parallel to the strip," but I think if one has to have a heavy emphasis on something, tempo is the thing.

Originally Posted by The Blank from Dick Tracy

Coach D (the coach at the graduate school I attend) teaches "weight mainly on front foot, point at opponent's chest, chest at 45 degrees and leaning forward at the waist, thumb at 12, back arm up and straight back on lunges (while leaning torso forward aggressively to acheive maximum distance)." I have only taken one lesson with him, so I don't yet know what strategies he mainly teaches. He won a national championship in eastern Europe and took gold in a multinational tournament over there.

Very old style. Won't get you far in, say, Western Europe. The leaning guard can be very limiting and doesn't really achieve much. The fact that you have a strong NCAA team means that the fencers are highly motivated and were properly coached before coming to your school and, as I said above, that coach D at the very least knows how to stay out of the way: their results are not necessarily due to his brand of épée. NCAA results are interesting, but not very.

And the bloc brand of épée is, well, rather pervasive in your sketches. I tend to dislike working with said coaches, as their pedagogical training comes from another time and universe and, generally speaking, has not been renewed since disembarking the flying saucer. Such is my prejudice. I've worked with Americans, French, Hungarians, Italians, Russians (in alphabetical order) and I can say I favor (in order of preference) French, Italians, and Americans.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by The Blank from Dick Tracy

...in the others' eyes.

I am an epeeist. This is only my 2nd USFA season but I have already taken lessons from coaches at 4, count em, 4 clubs. I started fencing my junior year of undergraduate, and now I am a first-year grad student at a different university in a state all the way across the country. I registered a new account to remain anonymous and keep my coaches and clubs a secret.

As an aside: You have provided enough identifying information so that your coaches and teammates can in all probability identify you fairly easily.

Furthermore, those who do not know you can still identify you with a length FRED session, personally identifying information, and textual comparison. With such a lengthy post, it should be fairly easy to remove from discussion some of the few candidates that a FRED search would give, based on textual details alone.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[samh]

The decision of coaches does not seem to be difficult to me. Only 2 of those coaches are at the same place as you are at this exact moment so you obviously have to work with one of them. Whichever one you like working with better is the one you should choose. There are plenty of top-level fencers who started out with not-so-great coaches or coaches who taught a classical style.

I think you need to pick a club and start fencing, after which you might learn enough to be able to make an informed decision about which coach to continue your training with.

[eac]

Originally Posted by edew

If your coach(es) don't give a reason for being in a particular position, then it's irrelevant and move to another. If your coach explains why your arm should be up (or down or sideways or however you want to carry it), and the rationale makes sense, then stick with that coach.

That's a little dangerous. Good coaches may sometimes know the right answer, but their talent might not lie in explaining *why* it's the right answer in terms that every student of theirs can understand. I tend not to rely on my coaches too much for cogent, comprehensive explanations; instead, I pick them based on results, and then view them as sources of fencing knowledge, deep explanations for which can be figured out later.

I say it's a little dangerous because I know at least one guy who went to a very high-powered coach and would always argue, because said high-powered coach couldn't explain to said guy's satisfaction why various things were true. Said guy proceeded to miss out on a lot of potential improvement and competitive success.

[Greg]

Good form in fencing is being displaced by good athleticism. It is stunning to watch some great fencers and see how wild they are. Not everyone of course, but quite a few have really sloppy form, but they still win. My only comment is the old back arm in the air. While it gets it out of the target area, it does tense the shoulders unnecessarily.

[The Blank from Dick Tracy]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Hi!




As an aside: You have provided enough identifying information so that your coaches and teammates can in all probability identify you fairly easily.

Furthermore, those who do not know you can still identify you with a length FRED session, personally identifying information, and textual comparison. With such a lengthy post, it should be fairly easy to remove from discussion some of the few candidates that a FRED search would give, based on textual details alone.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

Thanks, you're right. Some of that was unnecessary and I underestimated the tenacity of internet detectives. I tried to edit it out but somehow managed to delete the whole damn thing.

[seven6ty]

Originally Posted by edew

I used to think that proper form is essential until I saw a video of saber fencing

I thought that was a complete thought, in and of itself.

[Allen Evans]

I suspect that relying on F.netters to give recommendations about anonymous coaches is not the best decision making option for you. My advice would be to find the most experienced epee fencer in the room (or more than one) who knows the coach(s) you're dealing with and ask THEM what they think. Any decent fencer should be able to rattle off two or three reasons why you should or shouldn't train with a particular coach and be a lot closer to the mark than a lot of wild-ass guessing over the net.

Allen Evans

[AdamH]

Find a coach who produces fencers with results, especially a coach whose fencers are getting better results because they're doing what the coach is teaching/coaching them.

It's hard to find a coach where the fencers have noticeably different approaches.

Ask the coach what the heart of their game is/what their strategy is/what their basic ideas are. Tell the coach what your best actions are, ask the coach to watch you fence his/her best fencers. Assuming the coach's best fencers are beating you solidly by applying the coaches ideas, then you have something to learn if the coach can work with what you've got.

After one year fencing there's nothing wrong with taking lots of standard lessons (direct lunge, parry-riposte, step-deceive-lunge) but you want to be learning actions, applications, distance and timing as part of a total game and not just practicing what you won't use.

Fence the coach's best fencers as much as possible to see if it really works.

edit: Oh aye, and fence the coach. If the coach gives lots of classical lessons and fences like a monkey then if the monkey actions are successful ask to learn those. If the monkey actions are completely removed from what the coach is teaching, unsuccessful and the coach is still coaching from a book then think twice. It's your time, make the most of it

edit2: And aye, year 1 fencing is great, super-fast improvements usually. Year 2 and 3 is where you face real stagnation possibilities as you fence lots of different and awkward people. Might feel like you're learning lots of new and interesting ways to lose. Experience to gain good distance and timing is invaluable, so fence the best people you can.

[seven6ty]

I've got to say that all of these coaches aren't really teaching anything too terribly different from one another. It's all basically the same thing, with only very minute little details being different from one another.

Really, keeping your torso parallel to the strip, or at 45 degrees isn't that great of a difference. I'd chime in and say that you may want to try something inbetween. I think trying to stay parallel to the strip is a bit of an extreme stance, and so I'd recommend sticking more to the 45 degree guideline, which is only that... A guideline.

Same goes for hand position, I think 12 o'clock is a bit forced and extreme, you want something a bit more relaxed, and rotated outwards, so 1 or 2 o'clock would be sensible. Don't try leaning forward in your lunges, as your back will pay for it later on, not to mention that you make it easier to pull yourself up later on. The rear arm is another one that I would say isn't too terribly important, you can easily make do with it up, or down at your side. It's nice to at least learn to keep it up for a bit, so that you understand, physiologically why, and how that practice works, then decide for yourself which you prefer. I'm sure it will come to you naturally in just a little bit.

All in all, I don't see any problem with sticking with all of the current coaches, as they all have something good to teach you. You're still early on in your studies, and you might be confused and frustrated with it at first, but I promise that if you stick with it for a bit longer, it will begin to all make sense and you'll see how all of these individual lessons are related. Then you'll be at a better point to determine what works best for you.

[darius]

Good form in fencing is being displaced by good athleticism. It is stunning to watch some great fencers and see how wild they are. Not everyone of course, but quite a few have really sloppy form, but they still win.

Form follows function.

darius

[Phaeton]

The argument: "There are plenty of fencers with terrible form that do well" is complete rubbish. They do well in spite of their bad form rather than because of it.

At low levels this isn't always the case, but bad form generally comes back to haunt any fencer. Developing bad habits is never a good thing.

There are elements to good form that are vital for any fencer to follow. Breaking any of these elements may result in temporary su