Sad fact of usfa...

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by noodle

have someone film the basic seminar. split it into parts. have someone taking the test watch each part and answer a few random, simple questions on what they watched to verify they watched and understood. when they're finished, take the test, composed of random questions from the full palate of questions. if they pass, bang, 10. for higher ratings, they need to be observed and attend the bigger seminars at nationals/NACs.
{snip}

I think this is a fantastic idea, and would lead to more people getting rated, and reffing.

A couple of issues, though:

First--there doesn't seem like there's a good way to prevent using a ringer to take the written test for you.

Second--assuming that you are not allowed to look at the rule book (or something else) it's converting the test to an "open-book" one. Or even more--all one would need to do is to print out the prep questions, answer them beforehand by perusing the rulebook & then use that to answer the actual questions.

Given that passing the test only results in a 10, and requires actual observation for a lower rating, this may be a suitable trade-off (I'm not sure, though I'm inclined to agree that it would be).

--Philistine

[Greg_D]

Originally Posted by noodle

this is my vision:

It's a good vision, but for now I'd just as soon go for a VERY simple solution and then improve on it over time. We'd need a system that could do the following...

Check the current ref database to determine if the person is listed.
If they are listed, check to see if the person has a rating in a weapon already.
If they do, then any weapon in which they do not have a rating, they can take the test.
If not, have they taken the referee seminar within the past year?
If they have, they can take the test.
If not, they should be referred to the FOC website to learn how to ref.

Assuming that someone can take the test in general, the individual should determine which of the 4 tests (general plus three weapons) they want to take. The system should check to see if the person has already taken, and failed, the test or tests selected within X period of time (X to be determined later). If they haven't then the system could proceed to the test itself.

Here, it would be nice if we could enter a bank of questions and answers for each test from which the test would randomly select the appropriate number of questions. The system grades the test, records that the person has taken the test (along with a date and time stamp for the reason in the previous paragraph), and, if they passed, updates their rating on the database or sends an email to the database administrator to do so.

It's not all that hard in concept, but I suspect it's a little trickier in execution. If this looks like something that's doable let me know what you would need from me.

Greg

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Philistine

First--there doesn't seem like there's a good way to prevent using a ringer to take the written test for you.

true, although i'd like to note that i wasn't carded when i took the test. i could've probably said i was anyone when i took it.

Originally Posted by Philistine

Second--assuming that you are not allowed to look at the rule book (or something else) it's converting the test to an "open-book" one. Or even more--all one would need to do is to print out the prep questions, answer them beforehand by perusing the rulebook & then use that to answer the actual questions.

i'd time the questions. 30 sec maybe. long enough to answer most questions, short enough to make looking up an answer really hard to do in time.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Greg_D

It's a good vision, but for now I'd just as soon go for a VERY simple solution and then improve on it over time. We'd need a system that could do the following...

Check the current ref database to determine if the person is listed.
If they are listed, check to see if the person has a rating in a weapon already.
If they do, then any weapon in which they do not have a rating, they can take the test.
If not, have they taken the referee seminar within the past year?
If they have, they can take the test.
If not, they should be referred to the FOC website to learn how to ref.

Assuming that someone can take the test in general, the individual should determine which of the 4 tests (general plus three weapons) they want to take. The system should check to see if the person has already taken, and failed, the test or tests selected within X period of time (X to be determined later). If they haven't then the system could proceed to the test itself.

Here, it would be nice if we could enter a bank of questions and answers for each test from which the test would randomly select the appropriate number of questions. The system grades the test, records that the person has taken the test (along with a date and time stamp for the reason in the previous paragraph), and, if they passed, updates their rating on the database or sends an email to the database administrator to do so.

It's not all that hard in concept, but I suspect it's a little trickier in execution. If this looks like something that's doable let me know what you would need from me.

Greg

wouldn't be that hard. i'd need the test questions/answers and answer key in something like excel format. would just take me some time, since it would be something i'd be doing when i have time.

does fred also track those who have taken the seminar? or would we have to rely on someone saying they have taken the test

[Greg_D]

Originally Posted by noodle

does fred also track those who have taken the seminar? or would we have to rely on someone saying they have taken the test

Fred tracks it.

You're not just trying to get a list of the test questions and answers, are you? I'll get them to you in a few days.

GD

[AndrewH]

The problem I see here is the ambiguous/outdated questions. I had a couple of those not counted on my exam because my answer was correct under a certain interpretation of the question, or because the rule had changed from the version I had studied. You'd need to make sure the questions used for the test don't present that possibility.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Greg_D

Fred tracks it.

You're not just trying to get a list of the test questions and answers, are you? I'll get them to you in a few days.

GD

if the only thing that i'd be doing is creating something by which someone will take the test if they're on fred, then yeah, thats about all i need. also, any other information about the test itself and how it should work that you might want to send.

[peet]

noodle:

Email me when you have a list of services (SOAP, REST, or whatever) that you'd need from foc.askfred.net to make this work.

Some of it is likely already done, some is likely not. For instance, currently askfred.net gets ref info from foc.askfred.net via SOAP, but no write methods are yet exposed.

cheers-

-p

[noodle]

Originally Posted by peet

noodle:

Email me when you have a list of services (SOAP, REST, or whatever) that you'd need from foc.askfred.net to make this work.

Some of it is likely already done, some is likely not. For instance, currently askfred.net gets ref info from foc.askfred.net via SOAP, but no write methods are yet exposed.

cheers-

-p

a write method. i suppose all that would be required theoretically is to bump someone to a 10, at least at this point in time. so not even necessarily a write method, but a method that initializes someone's rating in the given weapon.

[peet]

Originally Posted by noodle

a write method. i suppose all that would be required theoretically is to bump someone to a 10, at least at this point in time. so not even necessarily a write method, but a method that initializes someone's rating in the given weapon.

Sounds good.
Maybe send me an email so we can take it offline (off-forum really)?

-p

[Slacker]

Sweet! This is something to look forward to!

[AllezCat]

By the way, I gather that Jerry Benson did something similar to modernize the USFCA's exams for Moniteur and Prevost certification. Used to be you had to take a written exam and send it off to the Certification and Accreditation Board, and you'd hear back from them some months later. Now you take the exam online, questions randomly selected from a large pool, and it informs you immediately whether you've passed or not.

I like the idea of online video for a low-level (9 or 8) referee practical. One drawback might be that on video it can be hard to see small actions, and even harder to hear. Still, it's definitely worth exploring.

[SJCFU#2]

Another idea that I've been milling about for a while (sort of goes along with the idea of having the seminar available on-line).

Would it be possible to record the latest announcements at the morning brief for referees and post it on-line (or at least highlights). It seems like that would help to distribute information to those who may not be there more effectively than the current trickle-down approach.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

Another idea that I've been milling about for a while (sort of goes along with the idea of having the seminar available on-line).

Would it be possible to record the latest announcements at the morning brief for referees and post it on-line (or at least highlights). It seems like that would help to distribute information to those who may not be there more effectively than the current trickle-down approach.

This is a great idea; maybe they could send it to the FOC list as well as posting it.

[emagdnim]

iI've had little problem with refs ever. our refs in VA are pretty much some of the most awesome people ever.... but

there's always a but

locally it seems somewhat normal to allow somebody who is fencing in the competition to direct if the refs are spread thin. which is obviously a conflict of interests that i would like to see stop. even if it is local it is still under usfa standards

[KD5MDK]

You're obviously not familiar with the standards in some other countries...

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by emagdnim

iI've had little problem with refs ever. our refs in VA are pretty much some of the most awesome people ever.... but

there's always a but

locally it seems somewhat normal to allow somebody who is fencing in the competition to direct if the refs are spread thin. which is obviously a conflict of interests that i would like to see stop. even if it is local it is still under usfa standards

Speaking as a non-Virginian, who is at most VA events due to college, I am familiar with the problem.

However, I don't think this is such a bad thing. I think Virginia has a very big referee disparity. There are roughly 5 refs who are active nationally, only 3 of which actively ref in the division alot. After these few "high level refs" it is a pretty siginificant drop off in terms of refereeing ability, with a few notable exceptions. It is my personal belief that I'd rather have one of these very good refs for my pool, even if they are also fencing the event, than an incompetent ref who is there only to referee.