Sad fact of usfa...

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Is this "no coaching on ref days" rule actually written down, or is it in the nature of a "gentle(persons)'s understanding"?

If it's written down, and enforced by pay docking, then it's a rule for everyone. If so, come find me at the Portland NAC and point out the heinous rule breakers. I'm not a ref, so the FOC can't sanction me. I'll file the complaint for you.

The practice of the exalted few in this sport getting to do or say pretty much whatever they want without consequences could stand some fine-tuning.

[fencing_friend]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

Is this "no coaching on ref days" rule actually written down, or is it in the nature of a "gentle(persons)'s understanding"?

If it's written down, and enforced by pay docking, then it's a rule for everyone. If so, come find me at the Portland NAC and point out the heinous rule breakers. I'm not a ref, so the FOC can't sanction me. I'll file the complaint for you.

The practice of the exalted few in this sport getting to do or say pretty much whatever they want without consequences could stand some fine-tuning.

I do not know if it is written down, but I know it has been enforced by pay docking. One referee from Summer Nationals was docked the pay for 1 day due to "coaching" a fencer.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Originally Posted by fencing_friend

I do not know if it is written down, but I know it has been enforced by pay docking. One referee from Summer Nationals was docked the pay for 1 day due to "coaching" a fencer.

A form of the rule was written down at last years Nationals.

[KD5MDK]

It was also verbally modified at the next NAC.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

So, what's the end point, then? Is there a hard and fast rule, or is it one of those "Do it unless you're influential enough to not be questioned" guidelines?

[Peach]

Actually, some less-exalted referees also strip-coach their much-less-exalted fencers, and nobody blinks an eye. It seems to most offend when it's high-level referees.

[KD5MDK]

Maybe people assume less-exalted referees are less-exalted coaches, and so may not be doing any good.

[notalent]

Originally Posted by Peach

Actually, some less-exalted referees also strip-coach their much-less-exalted fencers, and nobody blinks an eye. It seems to most offend when it's high-level referees.

Often the less exalted refs are new and have not encountered the rule. In chicago there was a new ref who I had to explain that he couldn't strip coach. Another consideration is that the exalted ref can influence a less experienced ref, the reverse isn't true.

[Peach]

Some of them are old and don't give a d**n, as I noticed in Chicago.

[Damon Scaggs]

Originally Posted by dekko

The rule does not apply to refs who have 1s and 2s.

Actually there have been high level refs in this range who have been suspended from national level work for a year and not given ratings increases. It is taken seriously. The largest problem is that we can't be everywhere to see what is happening.

[notalent]

Originally Posted by Damon Scaggs

Actually there have been high level refs in this range who have been suspended from national level work for a year and not given ratings increases. It is taken seriously. The largest problem is that we can't be everywhere to see what is happening.

I think part of the problem is that we don't hear of that happening. We did all hear/ saw what happened to Mauler. I have been told that I wasn't allowed to coach on days I ref and am ok with it. I did have to call a 1 level ref on it as he was all set to coach against my student, and since I couldn't it seemed only fair that he couldn't.

[Damon Scaggs]

Originally Posted by notalent

I think part of the problem is that we don't hear of that happening. We did all hear/ saw what happened to Mauler. I have been told that I wasn't allowed to coach on days I ref and am ok with it. I did have to call a 1 level ref on it as he was all set to coach against my student, and since I couldn't it seemed only fair that he couldn't.

I understand the viewpoint. I wasn't there at SN when Jay was sanctioned so I don't know who made it public, but in general discipline is handled in private. I also think there is general concensus amongst the FOC that what happened there was over the top. In fact, at an early NAC this year the rules were modified so that hopefully that won't happen again. Different head refs see this differently and how they handle it at an given NAC might be different. Also, those who insist are often sneaky and things happening on strips across the room are hard to spot. Before these rules were codified I myself used to give the private pointers between bouts to students. Now I no longer do that. In fact, if I'm going to watch a student fence I do it from a couple strips away so it's clear that I am not involved.

[Damon Scaggs]

One further observation just to complicate things. At the world level these rules are even more inconsistent. If you go to the World Championships or the Olympics, even on days you aren't working as a referee it is expected that you not do any coaching. In fact, refs have been sent home from these events for exactly that. At the other end of the spectrum, if you go to a junior world cup, coaches come and do double duty as refs and it's accepted practice. Very inconsistent.

[yeoldearmourer]

What make me upset with want done with Jay was that they were both release for the day. Jay was warming up a menber of the same club for fencing the next day. The fact of the matter it was done in public as well.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by notalent

I think part of the problem is that we don't hear of that happening.

This is part of what I was saying in...er...another thread. ( I am smacking myself in the head here! )

We don't hear about it, because referees and refereeing generally must be protected, lest (1) we, the fencers, "lose respect" for them, and (2) no one will referee if referees are "treated badly" by official public criticism or discipline of any kind.

And so we don't believe anything actually DOES happen, apart from an occasional public example being made where political motives are suspected. Nothing is seen to be done, so the impression given is that nothing IS done...

Can't have it both ways.

And so infractions aren't reported in the first place, because there is no faith in behind-closed-doors discipline ( and because people are afraid of getting on the bad sides of powerful referees and their friends )...

[MyrddinsPrecint]

There are a number of problems with reffing. Some of them can be solved, some of them really can't, at least not yet. (for example, we don't have the budge to pay people $500 a bout)

Everyone figures out what is and is not worth working for-- who they'll work for, under what conditions, for how much.

I think that the story of Jay at Nationals really connected with a lot of people. That someone as committed as Jay would have his motivations questioned, and be that ill treated drove home to many that people are often treated like **** by certain individuals, and that dedication to service often doesn't mean very much.

Jay has also traveled so much, and so many people have gotten to know him, both nationally and in so many regional scenes that he was very possibly one of the more recognizable national figures. And he's certainly been a very recognizable figure on these message boards.

The incident was a tremendous hit to my interest in ever reffing nationally, or ever working with particular individuals. I believe this to also be true of others in the general fencing community, and particularly of these boards. Probably a number of people have continued to ref without appearance of a change, but I imagine that a number of even those people have become somewhat more disheartened.

I was hugely disappointed in the way the situation was dealt with in the first place, and others were as well. In order to address that, given the rather larger than usual public view that Jay provides.... I think a bit more damage control would have been good, and I didn't see that.

I'm kind of worried that this will affect the commitment of the next generation of refs.

Then again, I'm going to an island in the South Pacific for 27 months, partially to avoid the bull****, so maybe listening to me won't help anyway...........

[peet]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

There are a number of problems with reffing. Some of them can be solved, some of them really can't, at least not yet. (for example, we don't have the budge to pay people $500 a bout)

Everyone figures out what is and is not worth working for-- who they'll work for, under what conditions, for how much.

I think that the story of Jay at Nationals really connected with a lot of people. That someone as committed as Jay would have his motivations questioned, and be that ill treated drove home to many that people are often treated like **** by certain individuals, and that dedication to service often doesn't mean very much.

Jay has also traveled so much, and so many people have gotten to know him, both nationally and in so many regional scenes that he was very possibly one of the more recognizable national figures. And he's certainly been a very recognizable figure on these message boards.

The incident was a tremendous hit to my interest in ever reffing nationally, or ever working with particular individuals. I believe this to also be true of others in the general fencing community, and particularly of these boards. Probably a number of people have continued to ref without appearance of a change, but I imagine that a number of even those people have become somewhat more disheartened.

I was hugely disappointed in the way the situation was dealt with in the first place, and others were as well. In order to address that, given the rather larger than usual public view that Jay provides.... I think a bit more damage control would have been good, and I didn't see that.

I'm kind of worried that this will affect the commitment of the next generation of refs.

Then again, I'm going to an island in the South Pacific for 27 months, partially to avoid the bull****, so maybe listening to me won't help anyway...........

Hear hear!

There has perhaps never been a man as committed to wearing the blue blazer as Jay; certainly not in our generation of refs (those who came before my time I can't speak to). He is the most ardent adherent to the principles of referee conduct that I know.

I don't know all the particulars of the incident in question, but one thing is for certain: anything so outrageous as to make him hang up his cards for good would have to be one of the most ill advised actions any representative of the USFA has ever undertaken.....

(IMHO......)

-p