Terminology: Counter vs Circle

[Mr Epee]

Counter 6 vs. Circle 6

Which do you use?

What is the root of calling these "counter" parries?

I really don't know. I use counter-6, but it doesn't make much sense. I guess I don't understand where the "counter" part comes into the equation. Counter could refer to "the opposite direction" as in counter-clockwise... but that doesn't seem to cover things. The motion continues in he same direction as the parry.

[Adler]

The word counter can get a bit confusing espeacially if you ask your student to preform a counter time of counter sixte and counter riposte by counter disengage.

[noodle]

i kind of use them interchangably.

my guesses as to why the use of "counter":
- the parries are made to pick up actions is opposite lines (counter 6 will pick up an action in 4)
- the parries will transfer blades into opposite lines (counter 6 will take a blade in 4 into 6)

[piste off]

Good question... never thought about it.

But "Circle" is really a bad term because that is not really what you are doing. If you are, it is just a disengage/parry 6.

Since it can be used as an attack, "Counter 6" may not be appropriate either.

Perhaps Corkscrew-6 is better.

Rick

[RITFencing]

I like circle 6... counter is just too overloaded. There are counter attacks, counter parries, counter ripostes, actions in counter time... it's too easy for confusion to pop up, especially with new fencers.

[TooLoftheDeviL]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

I like circle 6... counter is just too overloaded. There are counter attacks, counter parries, counter ripostes, actions in counter time... it's too easy for confusion to pop up, especially with new fencers.

At coaches college in particular this come up as an issue. A lot of work was being done to learn some consistent terminology for a crap ton of actions. The consensus there was that "counter-parries" were the ones that were made in circles, and not those parries that allowed one to make a "counter-riposte."

[piste off]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

I like circle 6... counter is just too overloaded. There are counter attacks, counter parries, counter ripostes, actions in counter time...

Thanks, Bubba.

Rick

[jBirch]

The original French terms for these actions were "contre-de-sixte, contre-de-quarte". That's where we get "counter 6 and counter 4" from. (Much like mutton comes from mouton)

I'm not sure why the French termed them that way, but two speculations are:

1) that the contre-parrie actions are to counter a disengage.
2) that the transitions are "opposite" what they should be. The lateral transitisions are performed "in reverse" to get the contre-parries. ie// 4 goes from outside to inside while contre-4 goes from inside to outside.'

James.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by piste off

Thanks, Bubba.

Rick

Fried counter, grilled counter, counter scampi, counter cocktails, peanut butter and counter sandwiches...

[logomachon]

As has been noted, counter means "opposite" or "against", from the French contre, and a counter parry moves the attacking blade into the opposite line.

A couple of reasons to use circle, besides the obvious one of disambiguating the term:

• There are already semi-circle parries.
• Pace piste-off, a circle parry really does make a circle, even if you think of it as "disengage/parry 6", which you shouldn't, since disengage, like engage, is offensive.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by logomachon

a circle parry really does make a circle

I disagree, and that's one reason I don't like to call them "circle" parries, or describe them as circular. A counter-parry that actually makes a circle is not well executed, in my opinion -- unless its purpose was intentionally to draw the opponent's disengage so as to execute a second parry against it.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Counter could refer to "the opposite direction" as in counter-clockwise... but that doesn't seem to cover things. The motion continues in he same direction as the parry.

In French, those parries which go against the direction of a disengage are actually called contradictions, strangely enough. In English the potential for confusion arises because of translation and because "counter" of course carries a heavy connotation of "tempo."

Even the French (some of them) are aware of this sort of cognitive dissonance and certain MdAs use simplified terminology (such as "circular parries") once they pass their exams.

You are free to stop torturing yourself on this issue, I think. (Doesn't the CC refer to them as circular parries?) I really think enforcing a simplified way of describing actions is the first step to making fencing better in the U.S. and getting rid of all the weirdly-expressed though inventive Bloclish that doesn't travel between coaches and clubs.

[Zilverzmurfen]

In Sweden they're contre-sixtes, for what it's worth.

[Downtown]

Originally Posted by logomachon

As has been noted, counter means "opposite" or "against", from the French contre, and a counter parry moves the attacking blade into the opposite line.

A couple of reasons to use circle, besides the obvious one of disambiguating the term:

• There are already semi-circle parries.
• Pace piste-off, a circle parry really does make a circle, even if you think of it as "disengage/parry 6", which you shouldn't, since disengage, like engage, is offensive.

Wouldn't that be more like " circle six in opposition" ?

[bigdawg2121]

Darn....Coach just explained the the reason behind why they were originally termed counter parries and how it got to be so confusing currently; sadly this was before break and I've had an entire spring break to forget...and enjoy the ACC tourney I'll ask again though.

[bunbury]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

Darn....Coach just explained the the reason behind why they were originally termed counter parries and how it got to be so confusing currently; sadly this was before break and I've had an entire spring break to forget...and enjoy the ACC tourney I'll ask again though.

I'm sure someone took a toast to Clemson beating Duke...

[bigdawg2121]

Of course. Hell, I even did that C-L-E-M-S-O----N cheer. (btw, get your fans like 2/3rds of them are off beat)

Afterwords, I toasted to our boys actually playing with their eyes open and the refs not trying to **** us yet again b/c frankly Clemson was a tougher draw than Dook. While neither part of the last toast was fully realized I think you'll still hear no complaints from us

[edew]

Originally Posted by Goldgar

I disagree, and that's one reason I don't like to call them "circle" parries, or describe them as circular. A counter-parry that actually makes a circle is not well executed, in my opinion -- unless its purpose was intentionally to draw the opponent's disengage so as to execute a second parry against it.

Same here. I tell my students that a "circle" parry is really a very thin vertical oval. Actually, I use the sliding door analogy. Drop the blade down is like opening a sliding door. The raise the blade up on the other side is like closing another sliding door, now with the person standing on the other side of the door. If done right, the opponent won't feel the parry, which is what one wants, so the opponent is less likely to react with his own, uh, counter-parry.

[RkfdFencer]

I fully appreciate that the movement is not a true geometric circle. I still describe the movement as circular, as opposed to the lateral movement from, say, 6 - 4. I have described it also as a disengage to a parry, because any words that give the student understanding of the phyical motion are good enough for me. I am likely now to use the sliding door analogy at some point in the hopes of seeing light dawn in some students eyes. (thanks!)

I do, personally, find counter-six to be confusing due to the counter-parry/counter-riposte type reasons given above.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by edew

Same here. I tell my students that a "circle" parry is really a very thin vertical oval. Actually, I use the sliding door analogy. Drop the blade down is like opening a sliding door. The raise the blade up on the other side is like closing another sliding door, now with the person standing on the other side of the door. If done right, the opponent won't feel the parry, which is what one wants, so the opponent is less likely to react with his own, uh, counter-parry.

I thought we were talking about the most ubiquitous move in epee, which is not a circular move but one going from 4 to 6 while the arm is constantly moving forward either as an offensive or defensive move. This is what is commonly called a contre-six (at least in my "circle").

I think some call it circle 6 with opposition which might have the conotation of two distinct actions, which while an option is clearly less common... as is a pure circle 6 parry without any other immediate action.

Rick