how to remove over-defense movement tendancy?

[amia]

I would like to ask some advice regarding how to coach a good epee fencer that tends to go from defense 6 to defense 4 with too large movement (the movement is continuing beyond the desried point). This causes him to finish his movement in a position, from which he is very likely to miss his contiued movement to atack (reposte?). He is trying to avoid it but it is embeded in him to strong. Do you have any recommendations how to "fix" this (except experiance of course).

[aamct2]

Slowing the exercises down and drilling a LOT fixes most things.

You can also try fencing/drilling in a confined area. For example, try fencing along a wall so that he can't move into such an extreme 4 or 6.

Also, you can attack the open side of his wrist every time he does this to remind him of the dangers of an overlarge 4/6 in epee.

Learning to riposte from an angle is very useful in epee. Any well executed pris-de-fer should not be made straight on, but at an angle to push out the opponent's point and prevent a double-touch. So, although his en garde in 4 or 6 should not be extreme, he does need to learn to be able to attack at an angle.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by amia

I would like to ask some advice regarding how to coach a good epee fencer that tends to go from defense 6 to defense 4 with too large movement (the movement is continuing beyond the desried point). This causes him to finish his movement in a position, from which he is very likely to miss his contiued movement to atack (reposte?). He is trying to avoid it but it is embeded in him to strong. Do you have any recommendations how to "fix" this (except experiance of course).

So you are saying his parry in quarte is too wide? (What does sixte have to do with it?) Describe the lessons you are giving or bouting you've observed in a little more detail.

But off the top of my head, you simply have to correct his parry in a context where the parry makes sense. The problem, if you are giving a lesson, is often that the action you are asking for occurs at the wrong distance.

[Mr Epee]

Yikes... hard to understand the situation.

At what level is this person fencing?

How big is too big? Is this a question of inches, or is it the awesome four-to-the-floor move?

We are talking about epee fencing, so here is one solution that may help.

Try fencing without parrying for a while. This is an good educational experience that will teach about relying on tempo and distance instead of blade-work for defense. Once you realize that the blade is your secondary method of defense (leg-work being the first), then it might be easier to limit it's role in fencing.

Also.

Big parries are often the result of the distance closing in a funky way. The closer to your body, the bigger the parry required. Be mindful of the difference between the various situations.

Got it?

[jBirch]

Another standard way to teach the 6-4 parry transition is for the fencer to extend their off-weapon hand and "clap" the parry into the palm.

James.

[RITFencing]

Can you phrase it in a more positive way? I find that in fixing problems, it's better to encourage people to do the right thing instead of not doing the wrong one; that way they are focussed on the solution instead of the problem.

[Mr Epee]

Dear RIT,

The sun will come out, tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar
That tomorrow, therell be sun
Jus thinkin about, tomorrow
Clears away the cobwebs and the sorrow
til theres none

When Im stuck with the day thats gray and lonely
I just stick out my chin and grin and say, ohhh

The sun will come out, tomorrow
So you gotta hang on til tomorrow
Come what may...

Chorus:
Tomorrow, tomorrow
I love ya, tomorrow
Youre always a day away

(instrumental)

The sun will come out, tomorrow
So you gotta hang on til tomorrow
Come what may...

(repeat chorus)

Tomorrow, tomorrow
I love ya, tomorrow
Youre always a day a--way!


P.S. Get over yourself.

[amia]

First let me apologize for my bad english (it is not my mother tongue).
I understand that my explanation of the situation was not clear. I think the problem is what Mr Epee called "four-to-the-floor" it involves the rotation of the wrist more than taking it to deep (it looks like defense 6 to defense 2 more than 6 to 4). If it has any influense, he is left-handed and he is in the top 10 of cadets here. The problems occurs mostly in bouts and not so much in exericse.
I did not understand what jBirch wanted to say (probably my english) could you explain?
The positive outcome should be defending 4 without turning the wrist and following-up with accurate reposte.
Mr Epee, it is possible that his defense should rely more on foot-work and less on blade activity so the exercise you suggested might be helpful.
Can you suggest any other tips according to my clarifications?

[D'Art]

One possible reason he's going with the 4 to the floor is he's not keeping his elbow tucked in, or it could be he's too tense in his shoulder, or both. Work on relaxing the shoulder and concentrate on keeping his elbow tucked in, and you'll probably find the problem will lesson significantly in fairly quick time.

As for the actual parry, try taking it earlier and slightly bringing the had forward while making the parry (even bringing the hand forward an inch or two will make the parry shallower*). You could also work on circle 6, though generally I wouldn't recommend it in epee (I prefer to do a counter 3 personally). Then riposte keeping hold of the blade. In some cases a beat-parry with riposte to the top of the wrist (while doing at least a half-step back) and leaving the point threatening the wrist is a better option than just parrying and riposting normally.

* It also has the added benefit of making the riposte quicker due to the point being closer to the target.

[Mr Epee]

Wow D'art, buddy... just wow. You were going along great... and then you went and dissed my man, circle 6. What's up with that? That's crazy talk.

The rest of what you said was good advice.
--------------------------
Amia,

Your english is fine. Don't worry. Describing complex physical movement/action is difficult for even the most fluent of speakers.

JBirch was suggesting that maybe he could use his back hand as a guide to understand how far the parry is/should be moving. Maybe the fencer is unaware of how large the action is... and this could help create some personal awareness about the problem.

Also, like D'Art mentioned, this is often the result of poor mechanics in the guarde position combined with excess tension in the shoulder region. Tense muscles are much harder to control. So keeping the shoulder relaxed is key.

Like you mentioned, the fencer is over-reacting. Even the top fencers will occasionally get into a bad four-to-the-floor situation when they are caught unprepared with an action. With training and experience a fencer can minimize those embarassing over-reaction moments and control the bout with grace.

My guess is that if the fencer is consistently using good technique in training it will eventually show up in bouting and competition. Not right away. And probably not as soon as he might hope, but eventually it will be a natural controlled response... even to the scariest attack.

Good luck.

[D'Art]

I didn't diss your baby there Mr E - I just don't have enough confidence in it to be happy using it in epee (remember I'm a foilist, so my parries are different in the mechanics than an epeeists). Hence I don't recommend it, and prefer dropping into 3 because of the extra protection it offers my style of fencing.

[Mr Epee]

Ok, buddy....

Yep, circle 6 in epee is a very different beast than circle 6 in foil. I can see where you might have problems... I don't quite get the part where 3 works better for you (unless you're lefty), but hey if it works for you then all the power to ya.

cheers

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

The student needs more queso.

[D'Art]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Ok, buddy....

Yep, circle 6 in epee is a very different beast than circle 6 in foil. I can see where you might have problems... I don't quite get the part where 3 works better for you (unless you're lefty), but hey if it works for you then all the power to ya.

cheers

Yup, I'm a lefty.

[jBirch]

There are two schools of thought on whether the wrist is supinated (palm up) or pronated (palm down) in a quarte parrie.

The "palm up" school of thought is old-school French grip foil style fencing where the angulation of the blade is designed to "stick" in the armpit area. It is a weaker parry though and doesn't control the blade that well. It controls the timing, more then the blade and allows excellent transition of the parry into a low line riposte.

The "palm down" school of thought is new-school epee style where the angulation of the blade is designed to carry on up the arm target into the shoulder/neck area. It is a much more "dominating" parry but doesn't have the same riposte-ability as the supinated one.

Finally, there is a third school of thought which is the "beat-parry". In this school, the quarte parrie is taken precisely the same as a 4-beat. It doesn't control the blade at all (except to minimally deflect the tip) but it does create a RoW advantage that can be exploited and it is much faster to perform then the other two parry styles.

In all schools though, the tip should still end up slightly over the attacking shoulder, with the riposte options available and the attacking foible controlled by the defending forte.

The "windshield wiper" parry is always bad and almost always a matter of poor reflexes, poor distance and poor confidence in the parry. It is often a result of taking the parry with the "middle" part of the blade, instead of the forte.

You might want to try letting the student practice with a broken blade until they get the hang of the parry.

James.

[Einin]

J - Why would using a broken blade make a difference?

[irishfolker]

I think it would force the student to take the blade closer to the bell guard of his own weapon.