Which type of foil socket it better, the bayonet or the continental

[Medinilla]

Here is the thing, at the moment i am using bayonet sockets in all my foils, and one of the guys i train with, uses the double pin, or continental one. So we spent a while trying to discuss the pros and cons of each type...not arriving at any conclusion of which of the two, does better its job.
So please help me to understand which one is better, and the reasons for it. Thanks

[SJCFU#2]

WARNING - LONG POST TO FOLLOW, DEALING WITH A TOPIC THAT MANY APPROACH WITH ALMOST RELIGIOUS FERVOR.

First off, by "continental", I assume you mean a German style two-prong plug and by "bayonet" I assume that you mean Leon Paul bayonet?

The German style-two prong socket is simple to manufacture and maintain. Therefore it is relatively cheap and simple to maintain. The German style two-prong plug on the other hand tends to require more maintenance and it has lots of small parts when you take it apart. The expanded metal spring portion of the pins gets compressed over time, sometimes allowing breaks in contact between the pin and socket (resulting in intermittent white lights). The hard plastic shell may hold the pins securely but it also forms a hard point where the wire comes out the top which is where the wire usually tends to fail. The integral retaining clip on the German plug usually works well keeping the plug from pulling out of the socket however from time to time you have to check that the screw holding it together is tight - otherwise it eventually comes out and the whole retaining mechanism flies apart.

The German design has been widely copied. The quality of these copies can vary drastically, anywhere from excellent to complete garbage. The most notable variation probably comes from Favero, where they replace the metal retaining clip and spring with a plastic one. These are a little less prone to fly apart however the plastic clip will eventually break and last time I checked Favero wasn't selling replacement clips so you have to buy a new plastic shell just to get a replacement clip.

The French type two-prong socket (Prieur) is similar to the German but the metal bracket is slightly smaller so the retaining clip on a German body cord often won't catch on the bracket. French two-prong plugs are probably among the simplest of plugs out there - a single block of plastic and two pins held in place by the same screws that connect the wires to the pins. They tend to be very cheap and easy to maintain but they still suffer from the problem of the pins compressing over time and not always maintaining good contact. However the biggest disadvantage of the French system has to be its retaining mechanism - a plastic clip fitted onto the socket that is supposed to fit over the body cord plug. These plastic clips rarely fit as well as they should and tend to break at the worst possible moment. Most people stay away from them for just that reason.

The traditional Leon Paul two-prong socket is similar to the French in that it uses a plastic clip on the socket to hold the plug in place. However their plug is much closer in design to their three-prong plug, with solid pins that are mounted in a plastic block that holds them slightly splayed to either side. This splaying of the pins helps to ensure good contact between the pins and socket at all times and because the pins are solid there is no need to worry about the expanded metal portions collapsing. The downside (in addition to relying on the plastic clip on the socket for a retaining mechanism) is that like all LP cords, resistance tends to creep up over time (maybe not enough to where you will notice it fencing, but is will show up an equipment inspection). This can easily be corrected by regularly pulling back the soft plastic cover, then tightening the screws that hold the wires in the pins (or better yet, back off on the screws a turn or so, then re tightening them - you can practically watch the resistance drop as you tighten the screws). LP has recently begun to offer the option of a German type two prong plug as well. I've never taken one apart so I can't say whether or not it has retained some of the features common to traditional LP two-prong plugs, but I suspect that where the wire enters the plug may prove to be a weak point, similar to the German plug.

The Leon Paul bayonet socket and plug are both more complex to manufacture and there is little that the user can do for maintenance other then occasionally re tighten the screws that connect the wires to the pins. On the other hand the twist-and-lock mechanism of the bayonet socket is generally more secure and less likely to fail than the clip on the German system and far more reliable than any plastic clip mounted on the socket. I would say that the latest design of LP sockets is probably even more secure since the plastic nubs that helped lock the plug in place have been replaced with an arch in the metal frame which will probably prove much more durable. The downside to LP bayonet sockets is that when they do fail it tends to be spectacular (pieces go flying everywhere). When this happens you are probably better off replacing rather than repairing (not that it can't be done, it just usually isn't worth the effort).

There are copies of LP bayonet sockets and plugs out there, however most of the ones that I have seen tend to be far less reliable so I would stay away from them.

There is also an Italian bayonet system, which is probably the most durable over system currently in use. The plug fits into a cylindrical metal socket, and metal pins on the outside of the plug fit into "J" shaped slots in the side of the socket to lock it into place. The wires are generally soldered to the plug so there is little opportunity for things to come loose. However they are probably also the most complex and expensive system out there, both in terms of manufacturing and repair when they do fail. Plus, when they do fail they are generally not something you can quickly repair (most people don't carry a soldering iron around with them, ready for instant use).

Each system has its advantages and drawbacks and which you consider better is primarily a function of your priorities. Some people like simplicity, others prefer something more complex that works with little or no maintenance. Some people also like to be able to easily swap cords and weapons with club mates while others like to have something that no one else will ever want to borrow. It's all a matter of personal choice.

[academe]

The Continental, of course.

[Tomas N]

The German design has been widely copied. The quality of these copies can vary drastically, anywhere from excellent to complete garbage. The most notable variation probably comes from Favero, where they replace the metal retaining clip and spring with a plastic one. These are a little less prone to fly apart however the plastic clip will eventually break and last time I checked Favero wasn't selling replacement clips so you have to buy a new plastic shell just to get a replacement clip.

Unfortunately, it's not only the copies that vary drastically in quality. The new plugs from Uhlmann are, in my experience, much worse than the older ones, as they have switched to an inferior design for the pins.

To the original poster, I would say that if you have LP sockets now, stick with them.

Tomas

[HDG]

The Continental, of course.

That sketch always really creeped me out.

[Alex_Paul]

Unfortunately, it's not only the copies that vary drastically in quality. The new plugs from Uhlmann are, in my experience, much worse than the older ones, as they have switched to an inferior design for the pins.

To the original poster, I would say that if you have LP sockets now, stick with them.

Tomas

Cough, thats because they are made in China now. cough.

The downside to LP bayonet sockets is that when they do fail it tends to be spectacular (pieces go flying everywhere). When this happens you are probably better off replacing rather than repairing (not that it can't be done, it just usually isn't worth the effort).

New ones coming soon will have the plastic totally surrounded by metal instead of surrounded on three sides. They will also be shallower and lighter.

That was a very good post SJCFU#2 and a very fair review of the systems available.

Alex

[Medinilla]

Thanks guys, specilly to SJCFU#2 for the long and interesting reply.
Just to add, the bayonet socket, sometimes gives problems with the electricity contact, and the touch light comes off split seconds later...apart from that i am pretty happy with it.

[brtech]

The most notable variation probably comes from Favero, where they replace the metal retaining clip and spring with a plastic one. These are a little less prone to fly apart however the plastic clip will eventually break and last time I checked Favero wasn't selling replacement clips so you have to buy a new plastic shell just to get a replacement clip.

Small tidbit on the plastic parts. They paid for one mold for all three parts. They can't have the clip made separately from the shell. That is why you only can get the three plastic pieces as one spare item. Mr. Favero notes the cost of the three parts is less than the cost of the Uhlmann clip replacement assembly.

[SJCFU#2]

Small tidbit on the plastic parts. They paid for one mold for all three parts. They can't have the clip made separately from the shell. That is why you only can get the three plastic pieces as one spare item. Mr. Favero notes the cost of the three parts is less than the cost of the Uhlmann clip replacement assembly.

All of which might make sense from a production point of view however the fact remains that the end-user has to purchase three new pieces of plastic when only one needs to be replaced.

Perhaps Mr. Favero should consider getting an additional mold that produces only clips.

[Purple Fencer]

All of which might make sense from a production point of view however the fact remains that the end-user has to purchase three new pieces of plastic when only one needs to be replaced.

Perhaps Mr. Favero should consider getting an additional mold that produces only clips.

At the prices for molds?? Not very likely!!

[fatfencer]

the Negrini/Carminari and the Mr Chen knockoff..

Previous threads spoke pretty highly of the Mr Chen knockoff too.

Are there any moving parts to it? If not I am definitely switching. Any time you have a moving part you severely increase the risk of some type of failure.

FF

[SJCFU#2]

At the prices for molds?? Not very likely!!

It's all a question of economics.

A new mold certainly cost more up front, but say it were designed to produce six ciips at once (which would probably require about the same amount of raw material as one complete set of shell halves with the existing mold). At this point if you ignore the one-time costs associated with the molds the replacement clips cost about 1/6th as much to produce. Assuming those new clips could be sold as replacements for maybe half the cost of a complete shell (what a bargin!) then the clips would be bringing in three times more profit per unit than a complete shell. At this point it becomes simply a question of how many replacement clips have to be sold to justify the initial cost associated with creating a new mold (and to answer that question we would need to start talking in terms of actual numbers).

[SJCFU#2]

the Negrini/Carminari and the Mr Chen knockoff..

Previous threads spoke pretty highly of the Mr Chen knockoff too.

Are there any moving parts to it? If not I am definitely switching. Any time you have a moving part you severely increase the risk of some type of failure.

FF

The term "Italian bayonet" is used in reference to both the Negrini and the Carminari systems. AFAIK although they are separate companies their plugs and sockets are compatible with one another.

Mr Chen's Italian bayonet looks to be somewhat of a hybrid. Although I have yet to take one apart the socket appears to be a copy of the Italian bayonet, which means it probably has a spring inside of it to push the center plate up against end of the body cord plug (just like any other bayonet socket). The plug looks like LP-type bayonet plug with a couple of extra pins tacked onto the side that allow it to lock it into the "J" slots on the side of the socket. It may or may not have a spring in it as well - LP type bayonet plugs generally have a spring to help hold the cross piece securely against the metal frame of the socket but Negrini and Carmini plugs do not (presumably they rely on the spring inside the socket to keep the plug sitting in the "J" slots).

It's your call whether or not any system has too many moving parts. Personally I have yet to see a system without some form of moving part, even if it is just a piece of plastic that has to flex a bit (and as such will eventually break off).