Cadet/Junior World Teams & Alternates

[Capt. Slo-mo]

I was going to post a discussion about the alternates for the Cadet/Junior Team, and then I realized there didn't seem to BE a thread ABOUT the teams!

So first, here are the members of the 2008 Cadet and Junior World Championships Team for the USA: (and congrats to all!!)

JME Team
Yergler, Jonathan
French, Peter
Hawrot, James
4th - Watson, Adam

Alternates Wicas, Graham
Watson, Adam
Sulat, Nathaniel

CME Team
Yergler, Jonathan
Raynis, Michael
Kelley, Edward

Alternates Kaul, James
Ameli, Kian
Harbour, Jake

JMF Team
Meinhardt, Gerek,
Chinman, Nicholas
Shaito, Zain
4th - Chamley-Watson, Adam

Alternates Willette, David
Chamley-Watson, Miles
DeSmet, Ariel

CMF Team
Willette, David
Massialas, Alexander
Goldstein, Jeremy

Alternates Khoshnevissan, Christopher
Pensler, Alxander
Curioso, Wilfred

JMS Team
Homer, Daryl
Spear, Jeff
Bak, Daniel
4th - Nydam, Barron

Alternates Nydam, Barron
Zuck, Avery
Ochocki, Aleksander

CMS Team
Cheney, Bryan
Prochniak, Evan
Bak, Adrian

Alternates Siegel, John
Choy, Jason
Douglas, Rhys

JWE Team
Hurley, Courtney
Hurley, Kelley
Scanlan, Susannah
4th - D'Agostino, Emily

Alternates Bassa, Francesca
French, Kayley
Caldwell, Phoebe

CWE Team
D'Agostino, Emily
Bassa, Francesca
Caldwell, Phoebe

Alternates Safford, Hannah
Bhinder, Amrit
Gegan, Natalie

JWF Team
Willette, Doris
Prescod, Nzihgha
Ross, Nicole
4th - Kiefer, Lee

Alternates Singh, Ambika
Kiefer, Lee
Georges, Epiphany

CWF Team
Prescod, Nzihgha
Kiefer, Lee
Georges, Epiphany

Alternates Wingh, Ambika
Wang, Luona
Lu, Margaret

JWS Team
Ward, Rebecca
Wozniak, Dagmara
Vloka, Caroline
4th - Aksamit, Monica

Alternates Aksamit, Monica
Borrmann, Sarah
Hassett, Eileen

CWS Team
Wheeler, Diamond
Diedro, Loweye
Merza, Celina

Alternates Osier, Lian
Cichomski, Joanna
Gurrieri, Alicia

[Capt. Slo-mo]

OK, now...the 4th slot on the Junior Team is sometimes contentious. This person does not fence in the individual contest at the Worlds, and is there solely to be available if one of the three main fencers becomes injured during the team competition at Championships, or is needed to fill in for a fencer who is performing poorly at the team competition.

Occasionally, as happened at the 2006 Cadet/Junior World Championships, the alternate is called up early as a replacement for an injured Junior who can't make it to the individual competition.

The 4th slot usually goes to the Junior fencer in the #4 USFA National Team Points position at the end of the qualification period. In the past--at the National Coach's discretion--the #1 Cadet fencer is sometimes held over as the team alternate, especially if the #4 Junior is in their last year of eligibility. Naturally, there have been instances of favor-trading, and back room deals where certain coaches beg, bully or bluster a slot for their fencer.

This year, there appears to have been a small committee that took the National Coach's "nominations" for the 4th slot under advisement, and made their picks for the alternate. It resulted in some seemingly odd decisions.

Only in MS and WS did the end of the season #4 fencer wind up as the team alternate.

In WF, the #4 Junior fencer, Ambika Singh, was passed over for the #2 Cadet fencer, Kiefer Lee . (The #1 Cadet was already on the Junior Team)

In ME, the #5 point getter, Adam Watson gets the nod over #4 Graham Wicas, a medalist at prior World Championship competition.

In MF, the #5 finalist, David Chamley-Watson is selected over #4 David Willette...who happens to be the #1 Cadet qualifier, as well.

And in WE, the #9 junior qualifier, Emily D'Agostino, is tapped ahead of #4 qualifier Francesca Bassa. D'Agostino is also the #1 Cadet, Bassa is the #2 Cadet team member.

If I'm the parent of these passed-over team members, and have just suffered through a long and expensive Cadet/Junior season with all the national and international travel, I'm a little miffed, and probably very confused about what just happened to my fencer. If I'm a Willette or a Bassa, I'm probably close to ballistic, as these selections appear to veer outside the normal selection parameters.

Tempest in a teacup? From personal experience, if you're one of the passed-over fencers, it's an enormous teacup.

[edew]

I didn't know they had team events for the cadet.

[KD5MDK]

They don't have team events, but the 3 US fencers representing the US in Cadet competition are often called the "US Team" when described collectively.

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

If I'm the parent of these passed-over team members, and have just suffered through a long and expensive Cadet/Junior season with all the national and international travel, I'm a little miffed, and probably very confused about what just happened to my fencer. If I'm a Willette or a Bassa, I'm probably close to ballistic, as these selections appear to veer outside the normal selection parameters.

In ME, I really can't understand not taking Wicas, ranked 3 on the FIE Junior list -- perhaps he is injured; also, doesn't the alternate have to pay their own way so it might be that is what is figuring into the equation?

I can understand the MF, as Chamley-Watson is ranked 26 on the FIE Junior Point list, and Willete is 59th.

WE and WF are using a cadet on the team as the alternate, and that makes sense. Sabre is a more mature weapon in the US, and from a developmental standpoint, it makes sense to have a cadet as the alternate, who may or may not even participate in the team event.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by nahouw

In ME, I really can't understand not taking Wicas, ranked 3 on the FIE Junior list

Note that of the 82 points Graham has in the FIE rankings, 78 of them come from a single event (silver at Junior Worlds last season). His international results this season have been considerably lower than what he had been posting previously.

That said, he clearly knows how to perform at Cadet/Junior Worlds (he also has a cadet gold from a couple of years ago).

-B

[teacup]

Do you know for sure that the 4th ranked fencers were not asked if they wished to be the team alternate?

Some fencers and their families may have decided that it either wasn't worth it or couldn't afford to miss perhaps a week of school and spend $1000.00 or so on air and other expenses to only fence as an alternate for the team event.

Graham Wicas as been on a Cadet or Jr National team for the past three years. This year he is in University besides school work he is fencing NCAA. The assumption shouldn't be made he wasn't asked.

(Who makes the decision as to who the alternate will be could also be different for each of the six squads.)

If I was a parent in that position, if my child wasn't aging out and we didn't have unlimited money and time, we would probably choose to go to a world cup next season to try to make the team rather than fence alternate.

Now, if the team alternate has all expenses paid, the fencer is aging out, home schooled or during spring break, then that would be another decision.

[lewis]

Originally Posted by teacup

Do you know for sure that the 4th ranked fencers were not asked if they wished to be the team alternate?

Worlds requires missing 5-6 days of classe. NCAAs as much as 3 more. I would not be surprised if Wicas declined to miss that much school (he is at Princeton right?) and not fence; particularly after having been an individual fencer 3 times and a silver medalist last year.

Also, the usfa is paying airfare for only a select few participants even for the individual team members; there is a sliding scale that requires x number of group 2 points (but only certain group 2 points count towards this - not all the points used to make team) for full fare, 75%, 50% and 25%. Many of the team members will be paying their entire airfare and yet the usfa wants to dictate their travel plans. As an alternate you are told when to go but have to pay for it yourself. The "free" usfa warm ups end up costing $1000 not to mention the other 20-30K for training and travel during the year.

Team selection criteria seem to me to be so weird; NAC scores actually count for a lot more than world cup scores and doing well in DIVI nacs seems to be a selection criteria for junior team. Why doesn't the usfa weight the nacs (at least for team) the same way they weight the world cups. In an olympic year the nacs are not as well attended as other years and atlanta ms was particularly weak. Only 2 NAC scores count for team in the seniors in MS but 4 four jms. If the usfa put as much emphasis on jwc scores for ms or weighted the nacs by actual strength instead of proximity to worlds selection, the teams would be quite different. I think in foil there is a fencer who will be top 4 senior but not junior team! That seems crazy too.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by teacup

Do you know for sure that the 4th ranked fencers were not asked if they wished to be the team alternate?

Well, as far as David Willette is concerned, I'm pretty sure he wants to go, seeing as he is on the cadet team for the same event!

I have nothing against Miles, as he is a good fencer and from what I've seen a good kid, but I do think that David deserves the spot after his double gold at JOs.

EDIT: Removed the last bit for being a bit too inflammatory.

[rocky]

Miles has had a lot of success fencing team, and has fenced with the Senior Team at several Grand Prixes. Who knows what David's decision was, but I can understand if they wanted to go with an experienced team fencer. On paper, this is a very strong squad with a legitimate medal shot.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by rocky

Miles has had a lot of success fencing team, and has fenced with the Senior Team at several Grand Prixes. Who knows what David's decision was, but I can understand if they wanted to go with an experienced team fencer. On paper, this is a very strong squad with a legitimate medal shot.

Oh, David wanted to go, I can tell you that much.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Miles, I'm just saying that it really doesn't appear to me to be a really clear cut reason why to choose the #5 fencer over the #4.

[fencerbill]

[quote=lewis;669755]

Team selection criteria seem to me to be so weird; NAC scores actually count for a lot more than world cup scores and doing well in DIVI nacs seems to be a selection criteria for junior team. QUOTE]

Maybe the emphasis on NAC scores may have something to do with the non participation in NACs of elite fencers in previous years.

My observation is that fencers with better financial support go to every possible world cup in order to get more opportunities for big point scores. The scores from NACs may be cheaper to get but are not as high.

Someone with a budget to go to all the NACs but only 3 world cups is at a disadvantage relative to someone with a budget to go to all the possible world cups includinge the ones, for extreme example, in Iran and Thailand.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

To a point. There is a limit on how many World Cups can count towards team selection. And frankly, shouldn't a member of the Cadet/Junior World Team have as much international experience as possible?

[fnzizxpnzve]

Could it be that Miles Coach had something to do with it?
After all, he is the National Men's Foil Coach.

[NNR]

There were only 4 designated junior women's foil world cups this year, so you really have to go to NAC's and as many world cups as possible. It is also easier to accumulate points at NAC's - competition level is much different.

[journalmom]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Maybe the emphasis on NAC scores may have something to do with the non participation in NACs of elite fencers in previous years.

My observation is that fencers with better financial support go to every possible world cup in order to get more opportunities for big point scores. The scores from NACs may be cheaper to get but are not as high.

Someone with a budget to go to all the NACs but only 3 world cups is at a disadvantage relative to someone with a budget to go to all the possible world cups includinge the ones, for extreme example, in Iran and Thailand.

I always pondered about this point too....and how about having cooperative schools and non-cooperative schools? Even if my son was good enough to fence and we were financially sound, I think his school would not be cooperative to having him miss classes that often.

[zéphirin]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Oh, David wanted to go, I can tell you that much.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Miles, I'm just saying that it really doesn't appear to me to be a really clear cut reason why to choose the #5 fencer over the #4.

I find this entire story rather pathetic for the role the selectors in the high performance committee of the USFA have decided to play.

My first question is why do we have these people, and by the way, who are they, if all they are called to do is not to pick the team (since they are there because of their ranking) but only the reserve of the junior team competition, arguably the weakest link of the team. Do we need to have experts involved in this selection process--the 4th person on the team event but not the other three?

I never heard in any other sport where the official members of a team are there by virtue of their ranking (no human intervention here) but the reserve is selected by a HP committee. The obvious question is doesn't this HP committee have anything better to do? Apparently not, so why have them?

The other observation is a comparison between the chosen fourth wheel and the passed over candidates both in the case of MF and WE.

MF
Willette, ranked #1 cadet, #4 junior, #7 senior, gold at JO cadet, gold at JO junior passed over for
Chamley-Watson, ranked #5 junior, #8 senior, 3rd place at JO junior

WE
Bassa, ranked #2 cadet, #4 junior, #9 senior, gold at JO cadet, 3rd place at JO junior passed over for
Dagostino, ranked #1 cadet, #9 junior, #15 senior, 12th place at JO cadet, 29th place at JO junior

Is this right for the fencers involved and for the US to send the best fencers?

The last observation I have is that a nasty rumor is going around originated by people who apparently overheard or otherwise found out about the discussions between the national coaches and the HP committee members. I appears that the teams, including the spare wheel of the tricycle, had been decided some time ago, certainly before the last qualifying competition, Junior Olympics, no less.

If this is the case, why have JO, or better, why go to JO? If the dice had already been cast, why go through this ridiculous charade called JO? No, we cannot tell you who #4 will be... It is such a momentous decision that it must be taken with the utmost care and consideration by our in house super experts... so we must think for ten days before making the official announcement and showing everyone that we are in control and really know what we are doing...
It is a shame that presumed adults (in age, not in maturity) choose to get their kicks on the back of the young fencers, those selected and those skipped in this process.

Other countries have a system where this is done for all team members and there are constant gripes that the system is not clear and should be changed. However, those who make the selection bear also the responsibility of bringing home the bacon, as it were, with their own mysterious selection. If the team wins, good. But if it loses, then the selectors are kicked out and new people come in. Might this happen with our current gurus in the USFA?

Not a chance, since they will say that they selected only the spare wheel... proving the uselessness of having these gurus in the first place.

Final question: are these super-selectors paid (in money or in kind, like trips abroad and such) to perform these duties? If so, how much, and why, for heaven's sake!

Shame, shame, shame...

Good luck team USA! You're the best, the gurus say! Now prove it...

[Mr Epee]

6.11.1. Tournament Description
Individual competitions for six weapons and a 3-person junior team championship in each of six weapons are held. Team competitions are conducted using the relay team format. The six weapons are: Men’s Epee, Foil and Saber; Women’s Epee, Foil and Saber.

The official team is composed of three fencers in each of six weapons. In the case of injury or withdrawal of one or more of the top 3 fencers they shall be replaced by the next person in the Junior World team point standings as specified in each individual selection criteria in Chapters 7-12 for each weapon. The National Weapon Coach of a weapon may nominate a fourth fencer for the Junior team within three days of the selection of the team if that fencer is ranked fourth through sixth (4-6) in the point standings or the highest-ranking cadet fencer at the Cadet World Championships, who is not already a member of the Junior World Championship Team. A sub-committee composed of an athlete member of the HPC, the Chair of the HPC and the Team Captain for the team will review the nomination.

I don't see how they take a 9th place fencer... unless others have passed on the opportunity.

In which case discussion of the matter becomes moot.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

I don't see how they take a 9th place fencer... unless others have passed on the opportunity.

Uhm, you've listed in your quoted text how the #9 junior can be nominated.

or the highest-ranking cadet fencer at the Cadet World Championships, who is not already a member of the Junior World Championship Team.

Completely different question whether the choice should have come out this way, but it certainly seems like D'Agostino was a valid person to be nominated.

-B