Cadet/Junior World Teams & Alternates

[keith]

There are lots of events from which all of the rank and file do not benefit. Adult fencers cannot go to youth events. Should only youth fencers pay ref expenses for youth tournaments? Should only Div II/III fencers pay for refs for Div II/III events? It gets a bit complicated.

... but the USFA is hopefully running (or will run) its events on a break even basis.

Now elite fencer is obviously a bit different due to the costs involved but while attending WCs is necessary for elite fencer development, simply attending a WC does not make you an elite fencer.

Not sure how you reach a cost compromise without the USFA limiting which fencers are eligible for international competitions where referees are required.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

I agree that covering costs of ref adds to the expense (the cost of doing 'business'), but who is currently covering the cost of the ref? Its the rank and file fencer, and what do they get out of it?

Actually, that's an interesting question. For international travel, how much of the Weapon Squad costs and referee costs come out of the dues-supported general operating fund, and how much is covered by the USOC money?

Beyond that, hair-splitting about relative value per the allocation of the yearly membership fee can get ludicrous in a hurry. If I'm Courtney Hurley, do I then complain about the USFA using my dues to fund Veteran's competitions in which I can't compete?

And let's get reasonable here. The membership is $50 bucks. 50. It's cheapest part of fencing you'll encounter for the entire year.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Oso:

I agree. The per diem bites.

But I'm talking about international travel being subsidized here, not domestic. Although, I'm sure the overseas refs are stuck on a per diem that does not adequately offset the weakness of the dollar vs the Euro, as well!

[mlr2fence]

I'm looking at this from the point of view that only a few fencers at the top of the point lists are eligible to compete in designated WC under the current system. I'd like to see that format opened up a bit more so that the opportunity is there for more fencers. I'm sure there are more kids that would have loved to have gone to some WCs and probably could have done just as well as some of those who did go, and maybe even better than some, but were just not given the chance.

Sure, a 14yo cannot compete in vet events, but they do have a National event that they can compete in. WCs are limited to just a few but yet those fencers get,if lucky, some $$ to compete plus the needed ref. This is an opportunity that is subsidised, pitiful as the amt is. Bottomline, increase the opportunity for more to go--some ideas are pointed out by others--and it just makes more sense.

Do I think its expensive to fence overseas? Yes
Would it be nice to get these costs defrayed more? Yes
Can one compete without the high cost of going overseas? Yes, by staying home and fencing locally. Spending the $$$ to go overseas is a personal choice.

[sleepyweasle]

We were extremely unhappy to get that email from Corinne. We happily sent our fencer to all the JWC's with the understanding that she wouldn't be attending ANY of the SWC's this year due to monetary restrictions (i.e. we have no money, especially as she turned down the fencing scholarship to go to the school of her dreams)(she also is unable to attend the Las Vegas WC this year as her presence is required at her sister's college graduation). Now what do we do? I guess we feel guilty that we really can't afford to send her to events where she's statistically very unlikely to do very well - although there's always the chance she may have a great day when someone else is having a bad one - and enroll in family therapy if she doesn't make teams next year because we didn't send her.

Or perhaps we'll just remind her that it can be nice just to take her last AP tests, relax, go to prom, hang out with her high school friends for the last time and enjoy her sister's and her own graduations and ensuing parties - as these are things she will NEVER get to experience again.

She can just concentrate on trying to beat the crap out of everyone else NEXT year.

[T]

In this case, you can make the same argument for Cadets that you do to over-serious parents when you're trying to convince them to focus on the process, not the results: "Look, there's no Y-14 National Team."

Then, awarding points for all Cadet International events and then encouraging people to attend them would be a good thing. The point-chasers could do so, thereby gaining a lot of experience. The up-and-comers and folks on the bubble could still get a taste of what they need to be doing when they're trying to make a team.
darius

It's all about organizational philosophy. The overall depth-quality of the USFA fencing point standings will never (at least, not anytime soon) be much better than shallow because of how the USFA approaches international and domestic events as well as developmental programs. There is nothing sacred about world cup events. They come in all shapes and sizes. If you go to one in Spain or Portugal (or Montreal as well as many other places) the quality is relatively low - but high enough for juniors who are 10th or 15th place on the USFA point standings to gain valuable experience and perhaps do fairly well. There is nothing like going to a world cup to gain experience; the value in developing fencing-talent cannot be overstated.

By eliminating the 'designation' process, people down lower in the point list would probably travel to some world cup events. Over time (maybe a few years), this would lead to deeper talent (assuming we don't lose them when they go off to college). Cadet events are even better training grounds - especially German ones. In both Sweden and Finland, you can get a cadet international-event and a junior world cup on the same weekend! If things are planned appropriately, there is usually at least one opportunity for 2 consecutive world cup or cadet events on back-to-back weekends. If you get lucky, it might be over Thanksgiving week holiday (some kids have the whole week off but everyone has Thurs/Fri off so that would reduce the number of school days missed). Since the Europeans don't celebrate American Thanksgiving, it is an ideal opportunity for a training camp in Europe. And this is not defined as a bunch of American kids fencing each other in Europe (that is ridiculous). It means American kids fencing European kids. The games are not the same.

European travel can get pricey (especially with the current exchange rate) but it is a necessary requirement.

[darius]

I tend to agree with Tracy on this - designation doesn't seem designed to help develop depth. No matter what, those with more time/money always have an advantage. The trick is to bias the results so that it's not the best determinant, especially in the Cadet events, which are really preparation for something bigger.

What's important:
- We should not overwhelm other people's events. Setting a base level of quality should be important...limiting the attendance to folks on the points list seems like a good start; if you haven't made a Top-32 age-group finish, you should probably be putting your effort elsewhere.
- We should fulfill their requirements. Nat Goodhartz told me that nobody's ever asked for a 3rd referee if we go over our 16-person "limit", and that's why the WF coaches feel that fencers who are outside of the Top 16 should enter the event anyway. However, if more fencers attend more events, that likely means more referees. Somebody has to pay for those... the good news is that if you spread that cost over 20 attending fencers, it might be less bad. (Yes, I'm sympathetic to the "death-by-1000-cuts" argument!)
- We should not take ALL results for points, because then the time/money advantage factors more heavily into play. A "Best X of Y" approach is probably best.
- Strength should be factored into points. In CMF, Samorin was far weaker than Cabries, and Koblenz's 2-day, 4-pool, reps from the 64 and 32 format was a slaughterhouse, even if the top guys in Cabries might have been a bit stronger.

If you get to a place where all the events are known beforehand, and anybody on the points lists can go, you can very easily get travel (for fencers and refs) booked ahead of time. That alone will save a great amount of money. Parents can look for deals, if they anticipate their kid being on the bubble or looking to get an int'l event under the belt for a next-season run.

darius

[Mo]

It would do a world of good for competition opportunities to have open events for Cadet Junior and Senior.
The same rules for making the events would apply, points in the lower level to get in the higher level. The opportunity for both sexes to fence in a big ole open in a national event is very appealing to some of the people I've talked to about it.
My kid would love to fence in the male events especially since she is getting older, at summer nationals. An open for both sexes would be really interesting to say the least and having lots of them at a local level provide a lot more fencing possibilities.
The Momster

[zéphirin]

Cadet Designated events are not FIE sponsored World Cups. They are National events similar to our NAC events, which are not included in FIE results either.
The WE events designated by the USFA were events in the European Cadet Circuit.
http://www.vigor-challenge.se/eng/ecc.asp

Thank you for this info. However, when I click on the link you provided and search for the events in WE cadet euro version, I found Heidenheim but did not find Bonn. Should this be a case for taking off the Bonn points because it was NOT part of the European Cadet Circuit? And then what would happen?

D'Agostino would lose 644 points and be 3183 points in cadet, #2
Caldwell would lose 364 points and be 2984 points in cadet, #3
Bassa with no points to lose with 3503 points in cadet would be #1

There you have it. Now justice is done!

No, wait, what happened to poor David Willette? Wasn't he #1 cadet and #4 junior also?

Darn it! nothing works! Back to the spreadsheet to figure the strategy for next year...

I don't know what your point is but I do hope that you are not trying to justify this process.

Dina was skipped over because she is not a US citizen and therefore could not fence for the US at Worlds.

Bummer! Didn't know that... well at least in her case there WAS a reason for being passed!

[lewis]

We were extremely unhappy to get that email from Corinne. We happily sent our fencer to all the JWC's with the understanding that she wouldn't be attending ANY of the SWC's this year due to monetary restrictions (i.e. we have no money,.
:

Well, I am just going to have to tell my young fencer that if he needs the points from these spring tournaments to make team then he will not make it. There is no budget - time or money - for additional tournaments in MAY AND JUNE. I don't see how the USFA can justify the expense 1) in an Olympic year where they are 2) crying poverty and 3) it still has not paid money promised from October. My older kid paid for all his own world cups - but the other one is too young to have that kind of cash - and also too young to go alone.....AH well.

We can check the points list and see whats what after. Maybe we can save the money and not go to Europe this year either. Canadian tournaments worked well as a proving ground for us Quebec is foreign enough to be experience and familiar enough to be a safety net.

If the team criteria are ever posted can someone alert us? Thanks.

[teacup]

Thank you for this info. However, when I click on the link you provided and search for the events in WE cadet euro version, I found Heidenheim but did not find Bonn. Should this be a case for taking off the Bonn points because it was NOT part of the European Cadet Circuit? And then what would happen?

D'Agostino would lose 644 points and be 3183 points in cadet, #2
Caldwell would lose 364 points and be 2984 points in cadet, #3
Bassa with no points to lose with 3503 points in cadet would be #1

There you have it. Now justice is done!

I don't know what your point is but I do hope that you are not trying to justify this process.

You are correct Bonn is not part of the European Circuit.

No, I wasn't trying to take the Bonn WE off the US list of designated events. The German tournaments are really great developmental tournaments. The format is grueling but good experience. (I heard a rumour that the Germans may not allow us to attend if too many Americans start showing up. The Canadians closed their events to us.)

I am not trying to redo the points for the cadet women's epee for this year.

By the way, last season the team point criteria for WE was the best result from one of the two designated events. It may go back to being so after this season.

Here is the link with the results from the cadet events in Germany.
http://212.34.165.4:8080/WAFechten/index.jsp?alle=ja

[darius]

Thank you for this info. However, when I click on the link you provided and search for the events in WE cadet euro version, I found Heidenheim but did not find Bonn. Should this be a case for taking off the Bonn points because it was NOT part of the European Cadet Circuit?

Absolutely not.

2 out of the 3 designated CMF events aren't on that Euro Cadet Circuit either, including the hardest one.

darius

[T]

Thank you for this info. However, when I click on the link you provided and search for the events in WE cadet euro version, I found Heidenheim but did not find Bonn. Should this be a case for taking off the Bonn points because it was NOT part of the European Cadet Circuit? And then what would happen?

I think the European Cadet Circuit is a new idea (I don't remember it from last season but I could be wrong). It is a great idea, though. All of the events listed have a history of putting on their cadet events so these are well established events (like Heidenheim).

It would be a great idea for the USFA to incorporate this calendar into our cadet system. At a minimum, it provides for a calendar of events that we can count on being strong events because the results apparently are used for seeding at the European Cadet Championships!

[teacup]

I think the European Cadet Circuit is a new idea (I don't remember it from last season but I could be wrong). It is a great idea, though. All of the events listed have a history of putting on their cadet events so these are well established events (like Heidenheim).

It would be a great idea for the USFA to incorporate this calendar into our cadet system. At a minimum, it provides for a calendar of events that we can count on being strong events because the results apparently are used for seeding at the European Cadet Championships!

There have been French and German circuits around for a few years. I think I first noticed the European Circuit last season when I realized that Goteberg had cadet events as well as Junior World Cups and wondered why it wasn't a designated cadet men's epee considering there was only one. Perhaps because last season the cadet Swedish events were weak but they are growing stronger.

While looking to see how other countries did team selection, I had read this in the Canadian team selection criteria.

8. OTHER DEVELOPMENTAL COMPETITIONS

There is final group of competitions in Germany and France, which are also important to an athlete’s
development. Due to their format and size they are a much better investment than a Junior FIE A
for a fencer’s development. Information on these circuits can be found at:

1. French Circuit (http://www.escrime-ffe.fr/SITE_FFE/c...mpetitions.htm
2. German Circuit (www.fechten.org), specifically for Cadet competitions

[zéphirin]

Thank you for this info. However, when I click on the link you provided and search for the events in WE cadet euro version, I found Heidenheim but did not find Bonn. Should this be a case for taking off the Bonn points because it was NOT part of the European Cadet Circuit?


Absolutely not.

2 out of the 3 designated CMF events aren't on that Euro Cadet Circuit either, including the hardest one.

darius

darius, my man, please take it easy... I'm not trying to steal precious points from "your" fencer which she earned! I was using a bit of sarcasm just to keep these discussions live and interesting. Many have contributed with useful thoughts and ideas in this thread.

Without this exchange we would all lose something, not only those who were passed over.

Back to my spreadsheet now. Let's see what else I can come up with...

[the highlander]

I'm looking at this from the point of view that only a few fencers at the top of the point lists are eligible to compete in designated WC under the current system. I'd like to see that format opened up a bit more so that the opportunity is there for more fencers. I'm sure there are more kids that would have loved to have gone to some WCs and probably could have done just as well as some of those who did go, and maybe even better than some, but were just not given the chance.

Sure, a 14yo cannot compete in vet events, but they do have a National event that they can compete in. WCs are limited to just a few but yet those fencers get,if lucky, some $$ to compete plus the needed ref. This is an opportunity that is subsidised, pitiful as the amt is. Bottomline, increase the opportunity for more to go--some ideas are pointed out by others--and it just makes more sense.

Do I think its expensive to fence overseas? Yes
Would it be nice to get these costs defrayed more? Yes
Can one compete without the high cost of going overseas? Yes, by staying home and fencing locally. Spending the $$$ to go overseas is a personal choice.

The reason kids (assuming they have the $$) are not able to go to WC's is not because USFA does not give them the chance, it is because their points do not qualify them. And one can improve one's points by doing really well in local NACs, which are mostly open or easier to qualify. If a fencer does not do well in local NACs, chances are that fencer will not do well in international tournaments which are much tougher in terms of competitors, strange surroundings, language barriers, etc..

You do not want to go halfway across the world just for your fencer not make it out of the pools, and even end up with such bad indicator and end up at the bottom of the list. The cost would be tremendous, not only in terms of your money, but for the fencer's self esteem, jet lag, losing schooldays. I guess your money will be better used in getting a really good coach, getting into a good fencing program and thus do better in NACs to improve one's skills and thus earn more points and thus be qualified to go to international competititons.

One can not use international competitions as practice ground, US Fencing's reputation is at stake too, and this is true for all other sports, be it gymnastics, swimming, etc, there is a local selection process in place to determine who faces the rest of the world.

[fleuretrogue]

Thank goodness someone brought this up. There is a domestic selection process in place - the NAC's. There is also a limit on the number of entries a country can enter at the senior and junior world cups.

We need to designate tournaments because we need to use a limited number of high quality tournaments as a selection tool for world championship teams. If we didn't designate, then truly, the person with the most money to spend would have an advantage because, let's face it, the odds of making a team increase favorably over time and number of tournaments fenced. This method doesn't necessarily pick the strongest fencer, it simply assures the fencer with the most opportunities succeeds. Also, we need to consider the ability of an athlete to perform. Clearly, we need athletes who can perform under pressure at important tournaments. Having all tournaments open and counting your best 3 takes away the "ability to perform when needed factor" from the equation. Other sports have 1 selection event - you don't do it, you don't go. I am not an advocate of such draconian selection criteria for fencing because fencing is unique, but I do believe in limiting the number of selection events.

There is also the rest-recovery cycle. Athletes at the highest level need to rest and recover, both physically and mentally. Having all tournaments count negates this. Look at the qualification methods of other countries - limited international tournaments and domestic tournaments. I can't think of any country who has an open tournament selection process.

Also, as a nation, we tend to burn out our cadets and juniors already. Our international success tapers off when you examine cadets versus juniors versus seniors with cadets being the most successful across all weapons. There are other factors of course, but one factor is that we push hard at the cadet and junior level and some kids burn out and others don't really develop until they are seniors. The first kid quits cuz they are tired of competing and travel and the second because they don't get the long term opportunity to stay involved.

In terms of Cadet tournaments, there is no entry limit by country, so we could send as many as we wish and some weapons have open registration for cadet designated. Parents can send their kids without going through the USFA. Anyone can enter. The only caveat is that if they do well and they haven't entered throught the USFA, the will not receive points.

The reason kids (assuming they have the $$) are not able to go to WC's is not because USFA does not give them the chance, it is because their points do not qualify them. And one can improve one's points by doing really well in local NACs, which are mostly open or easier to qualify. If a fencer does not do well in local NACs, chances are that fencer will not do well in international tournaments which are much tougher in terms of competitors, strange surroundings, language barriers, etc..

You do not want to go halfway across the world just for your fencer not make it out of the pools, and even end up with such bad indicator and end up at the bottom of the list. The cost would be tremendous, not only in terms of your money, but for the fencer's self esteem, jet lag, losing schooldays. I guess your money will be better used in getting a really good coach, getting into a good fencing program and thus do better in NACs to improve one's skills and thus earn more points and thus be qualified to go to international competititons.

One can not use international competitions as practice ground, US Fencing's reputation is at stake too, and this is true for all other sports, be it gymnastics, swimming, etc, there is a local selection process in place to determine who faces the rest of the world.