Cadet/Junior World Teams & Alternates

[Violin]

Live with it……you’re being shafted with no hope of recourse.

1. It is totally and unequivocally unfair to the 4th ranked fencer. (Who by the way, has shown through the current years progression of NACs and other tournaments that they are the “better fencer” due to their higher position on the list.)

2. The 4th placed fencer (and their parents) should have the right to decide if they want to fund the trip even if they don’t get to fence in the team competition…..they earned that right by being 4th at the end of the year. (not 5th, 9th or on a totally separate “lower” list)

[T]

Originally Posted by darius

I'd just like to point out that we're light years ahead of some countries. In Canada, for example, the High-Performance athletes (top 12 as selected at the BEGINNING of the season) attend a mandatory camp, and the coaches select the team.

At least there is a camp where all fencers come together and the quality contribution to the team that each fencer can make is assessed. It may be subjective but at least there is something to base the decision on. In this case, while I like Emily quite a lot and think that she is a talented fencer, there was no camp, no National Coach, and the Director of High Performance (who made the decision) did not attend one NAC (cadet, junior, or Div 1), European Cadet event, or Junior World Cup event this season.

(I believe the team selection process you are referring to in Canada is for the senior team - not the junior team). Canada doesn't even guarantee that there will be a junior team fielded because individually, they each have to meet specific critieria to make the individual junior event. If there are not 3 athletes that meet that criteria, then there is no team fielded at the Junior World Championships for that weapon. This year, it appears that Canada will not field a junior w. foil and w. saber team.

Tracy

www.usfencersforchange.com

[teacup]

Here's a totally radical concept. Let the three team members be PART of the decision process for deciding who the alternate will be.

After all, this is a team event.

What if the national JR Team event was before Worlds rather than at Summer Nationals so that the teams could actually get to fence together as a team? Perhaps at the March NAC or at JO's after the jr event?

[whtouche]

Originally Posted by teacup

Here's a totally radical concept. Let the three team members be part of the decision process for deciding who the alternate will be.

After all, this is a team event.

Of all the things I've read so far on this thread, this is by far the dumbest. I can only assume you aren't serious.

Here's a scenario. All of the members of the team at from the same club, or train regularly with each other. They think their friend/brother/sister/training partner should be the alternate. After all, it is their team, right? Why not bring a team mate? So what if that person is horrifically unqualified. What's worse is we're talking about cadet and jr world championships; I know our high level athletes are generally more mature than most people their age, but they are still teenagers and young people, and you know what that means.

At a time where everyone seems to prefer a more transparent system, you've come up with the most useless, murky suggestion.

I get it now. Funny joke

[darius]

1. I don't know what strategic coaching manual you base your knowledge on, but if your team is in a hole, the last thing anyone would do is looking for a Hail Mary pass (a series of passes as it were) from one who is arguably the weakest link in the lineup. It could happen, but very unlikely. You'd be adding insult to injury.

I know responding to insults on the Internet is a fool's game, but just. Wow.

There are football coaches who, when down by multiple touchdowns deep in the 4th quarter, will opt to punt the ball away rather than go for it on 4th down. In other words, they would rather an 100% chance of a small-medium loss than take risks to try to win. Admittedly, the odds of winning in those situations are small. However I'd take small odds over zero odds any day.

Last time I checked, team matches were DEs (yes, fenced to place), and margin of victory gains you nothing. Therefore, if you take a risk and fail, well...you were losing anyway. If you take a risk and it pays off, you get to fence more.

2. If #9 is someone who can go out there and score points rapidly as you surmise, as an unbiased pragmatic national coach, how can you explain her being #9 and not #8, or #7, or #6, or #5, or #4 in the category under consideration? Which points did she score when and where for ending #9 and not better as junior?

Really, if you didn't get my original point, which was hardly cheerleading for whatever deals get made, merely saying there might be some advantage to selecting based on tactical concerns rather than a half-dozen tournament finishes, we're not going to have a dialogue worth having. I apologize for being unclear.

3. In the absence of a national coach for WE (unbiased and pragmatic as he/she should be) who has the right to make this arbitrary and whimsical decision? Wouldn't it be prudent that the coaches of the candidates for the 4th spot were consulted? Is this what happened?

Wouldn't it be interesting if, instead of all this speculation, somebody actually went and asked a member of the HP Committee how this all works? Of course, it's probably more fun to kvetch on the Internets.

darius

[zéphirin]

Few questions:

1. Does anyone know who are the coaches who will be at the junior world championships for each weapon?

2. Are all the national coaches going to be there and if so what about WE?

3. Since there is no WE national coach and this weapon program is managed by a "high power" committee (who are they?) who's going to be sitting in the coaching box during the junior team event and making the momentous decision that will save the day when/if one of the three fencer will have a mini meltdown and he'll call the 9th cavalry to the rescue? Oops I meant the 7th cavalry... all these numbers got me confused!

By the way, teacup's radical suggestion, whether serious :-( or a joke :-), to have a pow wow between the 3 team members to pick the 4th could not have produced such an aberration. Teenagers may be a bit "radical" and hormonal at times, but they do know how to count... after 3 and could never match the stupidity and bias of "grown ups"

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by zéphirin

3. Since there is no WE national coach and this weapon program is managed by a "high power" committee (who are they

High Performance Committee

Responsible for matters dealing with qualification paths, cadre selection, disciplinary issues as they affect the elite program of the USFA; supervision of National Weapon Programs Tasked with addressing the structure, roles and responsibilities of cadre accompanying USFA teams

Chair


Stacey Johnson

Members


Donna Stone
Alex Wood
Felicia Zimmermann

Carla-Mae Richards

Yury Gelman (alt Ed Korfanty)

Sam Cheris

Jim Page

Ex-Officio: J. Bukantz, B. Largman

Staff Liaison


Jim Carpenter, Director of High Performance

jim.carpenter@usfencing.org

From usfencing.org

[T]

Originally Posted by zéphirin

Few questions:

2. Are all the national coaches going to be there and if so what about WE?

3. Since there is no WE national coach and this weapon program is managed by a "high power" committee (who are they?) who's going to be sitting in the coaching box during the junior team event and making the momentous decision that will save the day when/if one of the three fencer will have a mini meltdown and he'll call the 9th cavalry to the rescue? Oops I meant the 7th cavalry... all these numbers got me confused!

Jim Carpenter has been acting as the interim coach for WE. He has been at the Sr. Team events/Grand Prixs in Europe this winter. But he has passed on the junior team opportunity so Ro Sobalvarro gets to decide if the substitute will play.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by T

Jim Carpenter has been acting as the interim coach for WE. He has been at the Sr. Team events/Grand Prixs in Europe this winter. But he has passed on the junior team opportunity so Ro Sobalvarro gets to decide if the substitute will play.

Careful...

Statements this petty from a candidate are VERY unflattering (though quite telling)!

-m

[T]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

Careful...

Statements this petty from a candidate are VERY unflattering (though quite telling)!

-m

This wasn't a petty statement. It is a fact. Jim Carpenter has covered all of the team events this year for the senior team and Ro will cover it for the Junior team. My statement was a curiosity about why Jim is not doing it (since he has been doing it all season) and Ro will be doing it (who hasn't been doing it at all).

It was a statement about the lack of consistancy in WE more than anything else. Carpenter chose the 4th for the team yet he isn't going to coach the team... I think it is a valid question.

[whtouche]

Originally Posted by T

This wasn't a petty statement.

Disagree. Sure seemed that way.

[teacup]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

Not to mention that the possibility of higher point counts from the Junior WCs lure many of the top Cadet fencers away from the designated Cadet international events, given that the Junior points trickle down into Cadet.

Aside that fencers do earn more points for junior wc's, there are also financial incentives for Cadet fencers to fence in Jr World Cups rather than Cadet designated events.

1. Reimbursement for airfare for the Cadet and Jr Worlds is based on results from Jr and Sr WC only. So winning Cadet designated events earns fencers nothing towards helping pay their way to the championships.

2. There are no performance grants for placement in Cadet designated events only for Jr WC and Jr/Cdt Championships.

3. Though each squad is supposed to have a weapons squad funding program, since the women's epee program doesn't have a coach and apparently not even a program, this season there was no funding given to the top rated cadet and junior fencers as was done in the other squads. Therefore the only way for women's epee fencers to earn reimbursement was through performance grants from jr. wc.

Of course, depending on the strength factor, Jr. WC's are usually more challenging than a Cadet Designated so fencers should earn more points if they do well. Currently there is no strength factor calculations for Cadet Designated so there is no way to compare results.

I don't know about all the cadet designated events but the cadet circuit events in Germany for women's epee with four sets of pools and repechage at 64 are wonderful age appropriate training for our fencers.

[bigdawg2121]

I haven't been paying attention but is someone really suggesting that the athletes could choose the team more fairly due to the maturity they've somehow magically acquired? We're still talking about the same people that threw bouts in some key places at JOs a few years ago to stop a "less cool" kid from making the team right?

Cool...jus checkin'.

[Aprilshowers]

If you only consider performance then the choice of the 4th team member for WJE is wrong. When someone has followed the rules, had those clarified, and taken advise given as to which tornaments to attend, then to be penalized is unjust. The race for the JWE team 4th spot was intense between Bassa, Caldwell and D'Agostino. Bassa came out ahead and performed better in Junior events. The position should have been hers. If she was to be passed over Caldwell had a better claim on the spot. D'Agostino failed to perform as well at this level. So, I guess an appeal will be next. Certainly, better clarification of how this will be determined before a season starts is needed urgently, so to take away conspiracy theories or the idea of back room deals in smoke filled rooms. They all sacrificed school, money and time (life) for these opportunities and to have it denied like this is so blatantly biased.

Just my 2cw.

[NotIndPk]

[quote=bigdawg2121;672150]....snip.... We're still talking about the same people that threw bouts in some key places at JOs a few years ago to stop a "less cool" kid from making the team right?
[quote]

Joke, right???

[fencerontheline]

[quote=NotIndPk;672486][quote=bigdawg2121;672150]....snip.... We're still talking about the same people that threw bouts in some key places at JOs a few years ago to stop a "less cool" kid from making the team right?

Joke, right???

Nope. That being said, it didn't end up working...

[bigdawg2121]

Basically. Hence I've denied any anonymous requests for details. Just seems moot.

[occasionalfencer]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

Basically. Hence I've denied any anonymous requests for details. Just seems moot.

Please consider that if it is not a good idea to give details, it is not a good idea to mention it at all. Without any details you have left a faint cloud of suspicion over many jr fencers, of whom most presumably are innocent. I do understand that giving all the details might very well rake up old memories of past wrongdoings that should be forgotten. I am not really asking you to give details now, rather asking that in general people do not make these vague and unpleasant accusations, that could taint many reputations.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Originally Posted by occasionalfencer

Please consider that if it is not a good idea to give details, it is not a good idea to mention it at all. Without any details you have left a faint cloud of suspicion over many jr fencers, of whom most presumably are innocent. I do understand that giving all the details might very well rake up old memories of past wrongdoings that should be forgotten. I am not really asking you to give details now, rather asking that in general people do not make these vague and unpleasant accusations, that could taint many reputations.

I don't really think it taints anyone's reputation, unless you think the reputation of every single junior fencer who has ever sniffed at a team is tainted. I think it was vague enough that there really isn't a problem with reputations being tainted at all.