Cadet/Junior World Teams & Alternates

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Yes, the #1 Cadet is always an option. However, when they mention the qualification paths for the #4 slot, places 4-6 on the Junior points list are mentioned twice, then the Cadet possibility is tacked on last.

If a fencer ends up in the #4 points slot in Junior at the end of the qualification period, reason would dictate that it should be their reward, unless there are compelling reasons otherwise...such as injury or a total collapse of fencing results at the end of the season.

In Willette's case, he met all three critieria, and finished the season with a bang at the JOs. In Bassa's case, she finished #4 in Junior, and outpointed #9 junior D'Agostino by a substantial margin at the JOs. Bassa could make a pretty straight-faced argument that since D'Agostino was out of the #4-6 Junior rankings, Bassa should have gotten the presumptive nod for the team.

If the end result is that the National Coaches largely get to pick who they want, why not just codify it, and re-write the alternate slot selection with:

The National Weapon Coach of a weapon will pick pretty much whoever they want, especially if it's one of their students, and anyone else who scratched and fought all season long to wind up in 4th place on the Junior National Team Points can kiss their dreams of going to the World Championships goodbye.

It wouldn't be right, but at least the fencers would understand the rules a little better going in.

[Mo]

In Korea Lindsay Knauer was supposed to be a member of the Junior Team. She was in the top three and she was supposed to be fencing.
The coaches for that event put the alternate fencer in for her the entire day except for one bout. Lindsay was only allowed to fence one bout the entire day. She didn't do badly or lose a lot of points. She about equalled out.
Emily Cross had to try to pull up the points for the other team members but could have easily done for Lindsay what she did for Addie Knott. The issue was the team coachers were Addie's coaches but not Lindsays.
The coaches can do whatever they want to do. Parents sit and squirm and watch their kid getting treated grossly unfairly and there is nothing they can do about it.
The explanation then too was "we made that decision."
The Momster

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

hmmm..... reading is cool.

I should probably go eat something, as apparently skipping lunch is catching up to me.

Top Cadet seems perfectly reasonable. Saves money time and effort. If you want to be assured a place on the team, then finish in the top three... much nicer than quite a few other countries.

Bassa is also on the Cadet team and will be in Italy too. There is no saved money, both girls will be there.
This just seems strange to me.
There are so many top cadets that are not fencing on the teams.
sigh...
TM

[teacup]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

f the end result is that the National Coaches largely get to pick who they want, why not just codify it, and re-write the alternate slot selection with:

The National Weapon Coach of a weapon will pick pretty much whoever they want, especially if it's one of their students, and anyone else who scratched and fought all season long to wind up in 4th place on the Junior National Team Points can kiss their dreams of going to the World Championships goodbye.

It wouldn't be right, but at least the fencers would understand the rules a little better going in.

Women's Epee doesn't have a national coach.

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by zéphirin

lots of good important information...

This is the information that if any athlete has a problem with a selection process by a NGB that they should contact the USOC Ombudsman -- that is why the USOC has an Ombudsman -- to protect the athletes in the event of problems with a NGB.

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by Mo

Parents sit and squirm and watch their kid getting treated grossly unfairly and there is nothing they can do about it.

Yes, they can do something about it -- contact the USOC Ombudsman -- John Ruger: http://www.usoc.org/12946_12967.htm

[Mo]

Originally Posted by nahouw

Yes, they can do something about it -- contact the USOC Ombudsman -- John Ruger: http://www.usoc.org/12946_12967.htm

Good idea. Thanks.
In the case of Ms Knauer though it is way too late. For the people experiencing team selection problems now though it would be an excellent solution.
If they are reading this board I highly suggest they contact Mr. Ruger.
The Momster

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Or, start the clock ticking through this venue:

16.1.4. Regular Grievance Steps
The following is the process that will normally be followed in the Grievance process.
16.1.4.1. Scope
These procedures are intended to be used when a fencer or cadre member:
• contests being removed from a team;
• contests an improper denial of a place on a team selected using criteria specified by the
USFA;
• contests an improper preclusion by the USFA of his/her opportunity to compete at any event.
Notwithstanding the above, once a team has staged (e.g., gathered at any point in or outside the United States for purposes of traveling to or participating in a competition), any discipline or removal shall be based on the procedures set forth in the Expedited Grievance Steps in Chapter 8.1.5.
16.1.4.2. Appeals
Decisions of the USFA committee responsible for team selections may be appealed to the Board of Directors of the USFA (or the Executive Committee which is authorized to act on behalf of the Board of Directors between meetings.)

[teacup]

Originally Posted by zéphirin

WE
Bassa, ranked #2 cadet, #4 junior, #9 senior, gold at JO cadet, 3rd place at JO junior passed over for
Dagostino, ranked #1 cadet, #9 junior, #15 senior, 12th place at JO cadet, 29th place at JO junior

Emily D'Agostino was 1st in the Cadet Designated in Heidenheim and 2nd in the Cadet Designated in Bonn.

I personally do not know if Francesca was asked and declined or who even asked. Presumably, the HFC finalized the team, since as previously stated, Women's Epee doesn't have a national coach.

Originally Posted by zéphirin

If this is the case, why have JO, or better, why go to JO? If the dice had already been cast, why go through this ridiculous charade called JO?

JO's is only one of the competitions used to determine team selection though it is the last before the team is announced.

For Men's epee both the junior and cadet teams were determined at JO's. (Graham Wicas moved to fourth place ranking by a one touch loss. James Kaull moved to fourth place after JO's too.)

The third member of the cadet men's sabre team was also determined by the results of JO's. All the other teams, I believe ,were pretty much determined beforehand since mathematically the fourth ranked fencers could not earn enough points to overtake anyone. So you are right, some fencers may decide not to bother to go to JO's since it won't affect their outcome. (Highly ranked fencers knowing they won't make the team, who are aging out sometimes do not attend.)

Therefore in some cases, the fourth ranked Junior fencers may not have been determined until after JO's. During JO's, the fencers that were close to fourth place or the first ranked cadets were probably approached and asked about their willingness to fence as an alternate for the team event.

Being on the team though an honour, is self funded. Not everyone may be willing or able to take the time off school or have the funds to be an alternate for the junior team event.

Maybe David Willette did want to be alternate and was not asked. Graham Wicas probably was asked and declined. I don't know about Francesca Bassa. Only the fencers themselves know the situation that applies to them. I am not judging whether the USFA, the National coaches or the HPC are right or wrong or who deserves or doesn't deserve to be on the teams, I just prefer not to make assumptions and accusations based on information posted a public forum.

However, I do think the team selection criteria is flawed and needs to be reaccessed.

[lewis]

Actually this year 2,3,4 and 5 for junior ms were decided at JOs, with the 2 decided in the 8 and the 3 finally fixed in the gold medal bout, along with 4 and 5. 1 was locked in Atlanta. It was exciting/nervewracking from the 32 if you were one of the 10 people who knew what was happening.

That was because 2 nd fencers were not permitted by nd to attend a wc in spain that was essentially a nac. USA finished 2,3,5 and essentially beat each other all the way from the 32. However, the nd fencers got zeros and fencers behind them on the team points list got a couple of hundred points each for top 8 finishes (compare to a top 8 in budapest which is about 900 points).

These points from spain count as group 2 points for team selection but do not count as group 2 points in terms of the percentage of the airfare the usfa is paying for worlds for these fencers. USFA is paying nothing for the airfare for many team members and full fare for very few outside ws.

Of course these nd fencers had better seedings going into ncaa regionals than the 2 college fencers who got chosen for team. But missing the college meet made it more difficult to qualify for ncaas. The college coach would have to decide to essentially deny his fencer junior world team or make it harder for his team to win ncaas. One coach said stay home, 2 coaches said go ahead with our blessings. 1 nd fencer is the alt, the other is out of luck and the 2 whose coaches said go are off to sicily (and ohio state).

USFA originally planned to take 7 jms, who was 1 in cadets but the 4 was picked instead for alternate. Given that he was 1 going into Atlanta, and 2 before the wc he could not attend this seems reasonable and fair.

Last year JOs was irrelevant to the 1,2,3 in ms - all spots being locked essentially at January divI/jr nac with only the order of 4,5,6 left - and that spot not really up for grabs as there was a cadet to go as junior 4. The 1,2, finished in the 16 at JOs and the 3 skipped it altogether - probably not the wisest long term choice as the zero effected ranking and usfa grants into the next season.

I think the 1.3 rating for JOs is silly - nacs should be weighted like the wc - strength not proximity to worlds.

I know you are all better informed than I, but now I have vented and I will stop.

[teacup]

Originally Posted by lewis

That was because 2 nd fencers were not permitted by nd to attend a wc in

Sorry, what does "nd" stand for?

[teacup]

Originally Posted by lewis

Team selection criteria seem to me to be so weird; NAC scores actually count for a lot more than world cup scores and doing well in DIVI nacs seems to be a selection criteria for junior team. Why doesn't the usfa weight the nacs (at least for team) the same way they weight the world cups. In an olympic year the nacs are not as well attended as other years and atlanta ms was particularly weak. Only 2 NAC scores count for team in the seniors in MS but 4 four jms. If the usfa put as much emphasis on jwc scores for ms or weighted the nacs by actual strength instead of proximity to worlds selection, the teams would be quite different. I think in foil there is a fencer who will be top 4 senior but not junior team! That seems crazy too.

Yes, there are a lot of issues with the criteria for team selection. Each squad and each year, Olympic vs non Olympic years, have different criteria.

For Cadet Men's epee there is only one Cadet Designated and all of those points are added on top of domestic results with the points having no strength factor calculation. Therefore a fencer who is able to go and who does well has a certain advantage over those who cannot go or have a bad result at that event.

For ME, last year only half of Div I SN point OR half of Cdt Worlds could be used, this year full Div I SN AND Worlds could be used. This year results from SN Div I were used which means those that did not already have points had one fewer tournament at which to obtain points.

MS has its own set of issues.

For any WC, points can be rescinded if the strength factor is not great enough and the WC is un-designated. (This has happened.)

Div I points do count a lot, for those in ME, now only 12% of the field earn Div I points vs 40% of the field for WS. The results for ME have become much more random since one can have a bracket from hell with the majority of top fencers meeting each other to get into the 32 or 64. This also means that a greater percentage of WS fencers have the potential to earn points and therefore a greater percentage will have one more domestic tournament to attend than ME fencers.

Strength factor calculations for all domestic events and points down to 64 in men's epee would be two suggestions. A strong regional cadet circuit with points awarded would be another. Maybe a fencer's best 6 or 8 results should be used so that those without funds to travel internationally are not disadvantaged. Maybe all fencers should travel as a team to international events and the costs are the same for everyone.

Fencers high enough on the list and who have the financial and time means to travel internationally, if they do well, many or all of those points are added on top of domestic.

Some fencers can afford to take private coaches, for others the team coach is their own coach and others receive almost no tournament coaching. I think who is designated as team coach should be a more open process with team coach responsibilities and requirements written in the athletes' handbook the same way that athlete's guidelines are stated.

NCAA rules and schedules plus the college work load, make it hard for college students to train and compete domestically and internationally. This may explain the rise of cadet fencers on teams and the decline in senior participation.

I am not saying that any of the team members do not deserve to go; I am not saying that international travel is not necessary and important, I am not saying that certain sacrifices aren't made to make the team; I am not making any judgments on the worthiness of any of the team members, as I stated in my previous post, I am merely suggesting that it may be time to re-access the team selection criteria.

I wish all of them the best of luck!

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally Posted by teacup

Emily D'Agostino was 1st in the Cadet Designated in Heidenheim and 2nd in the Cadet Designated in Bonn..

And I'm sure that's one of things the selection committee looked at. An interesting sidenote: in previous years, only one Cadet international meet counted towards team selection. This year, both scores could count. The difference between #1 and #2 on the WE Cadet team? About half the points from that second overseas meet. In retrospect, Bassa probably now wishes she had gone to those cadet meets and scored some overseas points there. Another intangible? The Heidenheim and Bonn meets were months ago. How did the two perform head to head at the Junior JO's? Who finished the season stronger? See, once a committee starts playing "Let's Make a Deal," the statistical second guessing can last for months...

Both of the these young ladies are excellent fencers and great kids, and it's a pity something like this has the chance to rear up and detract from their enjoyment of their accomplishments this past season.

But as long as a slot on a World Team is subject to back-room dealing--even if done with the absolute best of intentions--then there will always be questions and controversy. It'd be easy to fix: just like on the Olympic team, if you finish the season 4th, you're the alternate. Period.

Imagine the consternation and hullabaloo in the Wozniak camp if the Olympic WS team was picked today, and a committee of shadowy USFA officials instead installed #9 Daria Schneider as the Olympic alternate.

Originally Posted by teacup

I personally do not know if Francesca was asked and declined or who even asked.

As I understand it, Bassa did not decline an invitation. She was passed over for the alternate position.

Originally Posted by teacup

I just prefer not to make assumptions and accusations based on information posted a public forum.

That takes all the fun out of the internet, then, doesn't it?

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by teacup

Sorry, what does "nd" stand for?

Maybe Notre Dame?

[teacup]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

And I'm sure that's one of things the selection committee looked at. An interesting sidenote: in previous years, only one Cadet international meet counted towards team selection. This year, both scores could count. The difference between #1 and #2 on the WE Cadet team? About half the points from that second overseas meet. In retrospect, Bassa probably now wishes she had gone to those cadet meets and scored some overseas points there. Another intangible?

Yes, in prior years it was the best one out of two cadet events. We made the mistake of misreading also.

Bassa did make a strategic decision not to attend the cadet designated events and go to Jr. WC's instead but that was her decision. For Bonn the request for entry was Dec. 20 and the withdraw date was Jan. 5., so there was time to change her decision and go after seeing the results from the November Heidenheim cadet event. It doesn't matter now. She made the team with no international points which is to her credit.

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

The Heidenheim and Bonn meets were months ago. How did the two perform head to head at the Junior JO's? Who finished the season stronger? See, once a committee starts playing "Let's Make a Deal," the statistical second guessing can last for months...

Heidenheim was in November but Bonn was only TWO weeks before JO's.

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

As I understand it, Bassa did not decline an invitation. She was passed over for the alternate position.

Okay

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

That takes all the fun out of the internet, then, doesn't it?

Okay

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally Posted by teacup

Bassa did make a strategic decision not to attend the cadet designated events and go to Jr. WC's instead but that was her decision. The withdraw date for Bonn was Jan. 5. so there was time to change her decision and go after seeing the results from the November Heidenheim cadet event..

In retrospect, that decision cost Francesca. As others have said, time, school and money play a huge part in making a World Team. Not to mention that the possibility of higher point counts from the Junior WCs lure many of the top Cadet fencers away from the designated Cadet international events, given that the Junior points trickle down into Cadet. When time, money and energy are limited, you're always taking a chance by skipping anything. It's a sad part of the game.

Originally Posted by teacup

It doesn't matter now. She made the team with no international points which is to her credit..

Which says a lot about her fencing abilities. Of course, try doing that in women's saber!

Originally Posted by teacup

Heidenheim was in November but Bonn was only TWO weeks before JO's.

See, that's what I get for not looking it up and assuming all the WE Cadet events were in the fall, like Cadet WS.

Still, the point stands: a loose committee selection process is asking for trouble.

[teacup]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

Still, the point stands: a loose committee selection process is asking for trouble.

Women's epee is in an especially difficult situation. Favouritism can't be blamed on the national coach, since there isn't one but then who is really in the position to make these decisions?