Unofficial Referee Handbook - Peer Review Requested

[IanSerotkin]

Originally Posted by Peach

I was interested to see that you inspect for the extra cords. I've never had a referee check that I have an extra body cord or extra mask cord, though I always bring them to the strip. The fencer who doesn't bring extras is doing so at his or her own risk, and will be carded if they are not there when the cords have to be replaced.

You might also mention checking for breast protectors, and how the referee should do that, as well as mentioning the ways of checking for a plastron (some referees ask fencers to unzip the jacket, but most will accept the lower edge of the plastron being pulled out from under the jacket).

Oh, yeah, and watch out for using "then" for "than" (Refereeing repechage is fundamentally no different then refereeing . . . should be "than.")

Thanks! Good call about checking for breast protectors.

[IanSerotkin]

Originally Posted by mgriff

A couple of items from a BC point of view:

In the "Running a Pool" section:



I'd recommend something a bit more equivocal here, such as, "Ensure that all fencers have an opportunity to sign the score sheet before handing it in" or "Remind the fencers to sign the scoresheet once their bouts are completed."

It's the fencer's responsibility to check the score sheet and sign it. If fencers wander off without signing, it's not the referee's responsibility to chase them down and make them sign.

Generally, it's only inexperienced referees who obsess about this, but I've had a couple of vehement discussions with young referees who were unwilling to turn in pool sheets without signatures even though they'd been searching for a lost fencer for 15 or 20 minutes.

In the "Between Refereeing Assignments" section, you might add something to the effect that if your assigner or the BC person running your event tells you to go eat, go eat—it could be your only chance that day (and the officials' food is usually better than what's available from the venue concessions.

Mary

Thanks Mary! Great additions...

[IanSerotkin]

Originally Posted by dberke

Overall, I think this is a great guide. I think you may want to re-order the sections a bit... for example, the description of repechage seems out of place between the sections on running pools & DEs and equipment checks. I'd move those kind of "organizational" sections to the end of the document.

In your list of equipment to bring to the strip, I'd add a coin to the list to use for determining priority.

You also might want to mention that if a tournament is using score machines with a remote control, it's a good idea to familiarize yourself with how the remote works before the event starts (so that you don't have to figure it out during the first pool bout.) Be sure you know how to rearm the machine after time expires.


In the foil equipment check, don't forget to mention to check that the blade is taped 15cm.

In the section on diagnosing off-target lights on the foil lame, in step #2 you say it's the weapon at fault if the colored light turns on when depressing it on the alligator clip. That should mean that it's a dead lame.

A discussion on how to call the head ref (for appeals & black cards) and armorers would be handy. These days it seems to all be cell-phone based, but if not, answering the question "should I leave the strip or send a spectator?" would be useful.

Dan

Thanks Dan!

Regarding the 15 cm rule in foil...it was an intentional omission. It's generally one of those unenforced rules because it slows down the day without providing significant tangible benefits for enforcing it. I'd rather new/learning referees (who this guide is geared towards) not get down in the weeds by having the temptation to check all foil tape with a ruler every single bout.

On your last point, that'll be in the Penalties section.

[IanSerotkin]

Originally Posted by peet

I'm not sure a referee really needs to know that much about repechage; it's more the BC's problem. The short summary that you have at the top of that section would be plenty, IMHO.

Some things you might add to the pre-bout checks:
1. there is a working device that secures the body cord to the weapon socket
2. that the alligator clip is on the lame, not the jacket
3. The bend in the blade is not excessive
4. the face of the tip is clean in epee (no booger tricks! )
5. saber fencers should make sure to hold the mask away from their body while testing (so that it also tests the mask cord)

Just once (before the first bout of a pool, or a group of DE's on a certain strip) ask one fencer to hit the strip to make sure it's grounded.

When starting the bout, before "fence", check that all the jackets are zipped all the way, shoes tied, mask bib flat, and all that safety stuff.

Look around and see that there is no debris, equipment, etc on or near the strip that could cause trouble.

One more halt: when the fencers pass each other

Have you considered a section on protests, requests for observation, and other "crowd control"? Maybe that's related to your planned section on penalties?


That's what I got for now. I might have more input after more thought, but it looks like you're already getting lots of great replies.

-p

Thanks Peet!

I agree that the repechage section might be overkill, but given the lack of understanding concerning how repechage works, I figure too much information is better than too little.

On your last point, yes, that'll be in Penalties.

[IanSerotkin]

Originally Posted by peet

Have you considered doing this via a wiki or other collaborative tool?

-p

I have, but frankly as this is partly an opinion-based document I want to maintain a higher level of editorial control. Plus, given the sparseness of the Fencing wiki, I think it wouldn't get the attention necessary to be accurate and complete.

[IanSerotkin]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Going through from top to bottom:

(snip)

Pages 11+ coming tomorrow or something...

Thanks...lots of great stuff.

While I too will tolerate a coach occasionally entering the pod for the express purpose of checking the scoresheet, that's not something I want to put in the handbook. Given how long it's taken to get refs to enforce the pod rules, I think the stricter wording is appropriate.

[peet]

Originally Posted by IanSerotkin

Thanks Dan!

Regarding the 15 cm rule in foil...it was an intentional omission. It's generally one of those unenforced rules because it slows down the day without providing significant tangible benefits for enforcing it. I'd rather new/learning referees (who this guide is geared towards) not get down in the weeds by having the temptation to check all foil tape with a ruler every single bout.

I agree that checking the length of the tape on a foil is probably overkill, but you might make a note of checking that the tape is in relatively good condition, especially on the barrel. When checking foils, I do usually check that, and have on a few occasions failed a weapon because there was more barrel showing than was covered.

The line usually goes something like "It may seem nitpicky for me to fail your weapon for this, but honestly, you want me to give you this card. That exposed barrel can stop you from scoring touches at all."

-p

[Mr Epee]

Ian,

Good work.

I would mention the role of the uniform in establishing trust in fencers, coaches, and parents. This is one of B. Oliver's stress points. I imagine that everyone has heard him speak on the subject.

I had the unfortunate experience of working an NAC a few years back in a pair of nice jeans and a white cable knit sweater. I wasn't dressed like a bum, but I was clearly not in uniform. IIRC, it was a II/III and or youth event. The key is that it was a level where folks see uniforms instead of faces.

The BC recieved numerous complaints about my performance that day. I don't recall the exact complaints, but I was observed several times. The conclusion of the observers was that my performance was great, however, the fencers were just freaked out because I didn't look like a referee that day.

They were getting similar complaints that day about Robby Carillo who had also lost his luggage and was out of uniform. The level of competition was significantly below his established level.

That's the sort of thing that might be valuable for a developing referee.

[edew]

Or, you could just say, "You can either have a yellow card or lose a couple touches. Pick your poison."

[arc]

Originally Posted by KShan5[PrFC]

I was told by Gerrie Baumgart that when reffing you should never stand right at the End Line or Warning Line (as described on pg 17) because it gives on fencer an unfair advantage. If the fencer who can see you knows that you set up at the end of the strip every time they know precisely where the end of the strip is. However, the fencer you are standing behind does not get this same advantage. The same goes for standing at the Warning Line. She recommended standing in between the two lines so as not to give either fence an unfair advantage. This never occurred to me, being primarily a sabre ref, but it makes sense.

Having seen Gerrie as frequently as I do, and having discussed this with her, I think you may have misunderstood exactly the issue with lining up even with the end line or the warning line -- it's not that the fencer on the other side gets an advantage, because presumably they can see the lines for themselves, but you give the retreating fencer a reference point in their peripheral vision if you frequently and consistently stand in line with the warning or end lines, which amounts to an additional, subtle warning not to go back any further. *That's* the unfair advantage which a good ref (especially an epee ref) needs to avoid giving.

[KD5MDK]

You might also stand behind it a little. The key thing is to be able to see the lights and end line at the same time so you can say with confidence which arrived first. You can be sure the fencer or coach at the end of the strip will.

Extension lights are so awesome.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

You can be sure the fencer or coach at the end of the strip will. ;)

Whether s/he can see it or not...

-B

[peet]

So true...

[notalent]

Originally Posted by IanSerotkin

Thanks Dan!

Regarding the 15 cm rule in foil...it was an intentional omission. It's generally one of those unenforced rules because it slows down the day without providing significant tangible benefits for enforcing it. I'd rather new/learning referees (who this guide is geared towards) not get down in the weeds by having the temptation to check all foil tape with a ruler every single bout.

On your last point, that'll be in the Penalties section.

While the rule is rarely penalized for, I do mention it to the fencers when their tape is in poor shape. Anything that can cause intermitent missing slows down the bout, and that is always worth avoiding.

[notalent]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Ian,

Good work.

I would mention the role of the uniform in establishing trust in fencers, coaches, and parents. This is one of B. Oliver's stress points. I imagine that everyone has heard him speak on the subject.

I had the unfortunate experience of working an NAC a few years back in a pair of nice jeans and a white cable knit sweater. I wasn't dressed like a bum, but I was clearly not in uniform. IIRC, it was a II/III and or youth event. The key is that it was a level where folks see uniforms instead of faces.

The BC recieved numerous complaints about my performance that day. I don't recall the exact complaints, but I was observed several times. The conclusion of the observers was that my performance was great, however, the fencers were just freaked out because I didn't look like a referee that day.

They were getting similar complaints that day about Robby Carillo who had also lost his luggage and was out of uniform. The level of competition was significantly below his established level.

That's the sort of thing that might be valuable for a developing referee.

Albuquerque, it wasnt just you and Robby that had lost luggage, I had mine misplaced aswell. I was lucky enough to have had my jacket in my carryon so I wasnt as conspicuous as you 2.

[notalent]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Lee can be either a male or female name.

It's possible for the minute break in sabre to come with one of the fencers at 9 touches, if a red card is given alongside a touch when one fencer's score is at 7.

-B

What sort of deviant would do that

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by notalent

While the rule is rarely penalized for, I do mention it to the fencers when their tape is in poor shape. Anything that can cause intermitent missing slows down the bout, and that is always worth avoiding.

I do check it and it doesn't take any significant time. The key is to use the first rule of estimating, comparison. If you measure your hand, you will find that either across the palm to the outstretched thumb is approximately 15cm, or the distance from the base of your palm to the tip of your fingers is around 15cm. Once you know that, or at least how much more or less one of your hand dimensions compared to 15cm, you can check the length of tape during the weight test, barrel test, examine tape, etc.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by notalent

Albuquerque, it wasnt just you and Robby that had lost luggage, I had mine misplaced aswell. I was lucky enough to have had my jacket in my carryon so I wasnt as conspicuous as you 2.

Yes, but is a black "Matrix" overcoat really part of the uniform?