StM vs. Absolute vs. Blue Gauntlet

[chinbeard]

EDITED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Is it really worth investing in a better quality epee setup (StM blade, etc...) when I'm still planning on eventually fencing all three weapons? Should I maybe try to buy a couple of used epees off somebody at the club, or get one of the cheap 4pc epee kits (which I assume do not use StM blades)?

I mean, with two StM setups and fancy cords, I'd already be halfway to owning both an epee and a foil kit (of lesser quality).


(I'm going NON-FIE).

[chinbeard]

Also, what about getting bare blades and doing the wiring and assembly myself? Is it unreasonably difficult?

[gatsby]

mmm i think it's a general consensus that at your price range, StM is definitely the way to go. They tend to be more standardized while the AF/BG blades can be VERY different between blades. Oh, and I've heard lot's of horror stories about early or strangely placed blade breakings.

[SJCFU#2]

Also, what about getting bare blades and doing the wiring and assembly myself? Is it unreasonably difficult?

It's not overly difficult - provided you know what you're doing (there's always a catch).

There are a number of places to go for advise regarding how to wire a blade, including the "Ask the Expert: Armory" section of Fencing.net. However it may be better to ask someone who knows what they are doing to help walk you through it the first time. Probably the single biggest thing to watch for is that the blade is clean beforehand. New blades are sometimes packed in grease to prevent rust during shipping - it can take a bit of effort to get all of the grease out of the groove and if you don't then the glue will not hold.

You may also want to order an extra wire, especially if this is your first time. Think of it as insurance - if you have it then you probably won't have any problems but if you don't then something will probably go wrong and you'll find yourself having to do it all over again.

[chinbeard]

Ok, StM it is. What about the tip? There's 2 Leon Paul tips, and a FWF tip. Is one of them significantly more durable than the others? Also, what about bodycords?

[TBean]

Do you have someone that can help teach you how to assemble your weapons? This is valuable to know how to do but having someone walk you though the process the first time is a pretty good idea.

I don't use LP components. I use german parts - barrels, tips, wires - that I find perfectly fine. No matter which you choose wire all your weapons with the same componants. They are not interchangable. So if one is Leon Paul and another is german - you will need to buy and keep track of tip screws etc, for each.

Also, when you are purchasing be sure to order extra tip-screws, pressure and contact springs and wire. Having an extra tip or two is not a bad idea either. Tip screws need to be replaced regularly becuase they just fall out - if both tip screws go, you have probably lost the tip and pressure spring. Weapons need maintenance, extra stuff is just smart.

If you are buying an unassembled weapon do not forget bell-gaurd, pad, socket and grips. There was just a thread on body-cords, you might look at that. Have fun.

[SJCFU#2]

No matter which you choose wire all your weapons with the same componants. They are not interchangable. So if one is Leon Paul and another is german - you will need to buy and keep track of tip screws etc, for each.

Actually épée parts from different manufacturers tend to be far more compatible with one another than is the case with foil. The one exception is tip screws - a Leon Paul tip screw will fit quite snuggly into a French or German tip (in fact some people routinely replace missing French and German tip screws with LP screws specifically because they tend to hold more securely). However once a LP screw has been fitted into a French or German tip there can be no going back.

Personally I favor German tips for épée however I'm considering shifting our club épées over to LP at some time (mainly because I'm also considering shifting the foils from French to LP).

Also, when you are purchasing be sure to order extra tip-screws, pressure and contact springs and wire. Having an extra tip or two is not a bad idea either. Tip screws need to be replaced regularly becuase they just fall out - if both tip screws go, you have probably lost the tip and pressure spring. Weapons need maintenance, extra stuff is just smart.

Seconded (when you look at the cost of a complete weapon the cost of a few spare springs and screws is almost negligible).

If you are buying an unassembled weapon do not forget bell-gaurd, pad, socket and grips.

Also don't forget spaghetti-insulation (it won't come with a replacement wire), a pommel which is suitable to the selected grip and a lock washer in the case of a pistol grip (although you can pick that up at any hardware store - even Home Depot usually has 6mm lock washers).

[Craig]

For those of you who read my other thread, I'm going to at least start out competing in epee, because I regularly fence better epeeists than foilists (and don't have the money for a sabre setup).

Now the question is which brand to go with? I've heard excellent things about StM, and supposedly, BG puts out a good blade too. Which is better? Or should I get it from absolute? What about that fence-smart stuff on eBay?

(I'm going NON-FIE).

Here is what has been most popular with the beginning epee fencers who are going electric that order from our shop:

StM epee blade
German point
Standard bell guard
Standard pad
Standard socket (though an upgrade to FWF or Leon Paul is well spent here)

There's about a 50/50 split between french grip and visconti.

Craig

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

a lock washer in the case of a pistol grip (although you can pick that up at any hardware store - even Home Depot usually has 6mm lock washers).

I've found that lock washers are more trouble than they are worth. If you tighten your pommel nut too hard, it can disfugure a lock washer, which can gum up the whole works. Instead, I use the all-hex outside hex pommel nuts. When tightened down, they tend to "squish" slightly at the end, creating a very tight bond.

[SJCFU#2]

I've found that lock washers are more trouble than they are worth. If you tighten your pommel nut too hard, it can disfugure a lock washer, which can gum up the whole works. Instead, I use the all-hex outside hex pommel nuts. When tightened down, they tend to "squish" slightly at the end, creating a very tight bond.

Are you talking about star-type lock washers or split?

I've seen star-type lock washers distort to the point where it made it almost impossible to remove a grip. However I've never had a problem with a properly-used split washer.

[chinbeard]

Here is what has been most popular with the beginning epee fencers who are going electric that order from our shop:

StM epee blade
German point
Standard bell guard
Standard pad
Standard socket (though an upgrade to FWF or Leon Paul is well spent here)

There's about a 50/50 split between french grip and visconti.

Craig

If I get a FWF or LP socket, should I get a FWF or LP body cord?

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Are you talking about star-type lock washers or split?

I've seen star-type lock washers distort to the point where it made it almost impossible to remove a grip. However I've never had a problem with a properly-used split washer.

Split. "Properly-used?" Maybe.

[SJCFU#2]

If I get a FWF or LP socket, should I get a FWF or LP body cord?

For épée it won't make much of a difference - both use three-prong plugs and sockets.

FWF body cord plugs have hard plastic shell that is slightly larger than the soft plastic cover used on LP body cords. Therefore the bail (the metal loop and rubber ball on the socket which fit over the plug to keep it from accidentally coming out while you are fencing) on the FWF socket is sized to fit over a slightly larger plug than the bail on a LP socket. This means that you can easily fit the bail on a FWF socket over a LP plug and the extra space won't be a problem (LP plugs tend to fit pretty well on their own). However while you can fit the bail of a LP socket over a FWF plug it will take more effort than it's probably worth (although you can slide the rubber ball over to the side of the bail to get a little more room).

[chinbeard]

I was doing some price shopping, and this just occured to me:

Is it really worth investing in a better quality epee setup (StM blade, etc...) when I'm still planning on eventually fencing all three weapons? Should I maybe try to buy a couple of used epees off somebody at the club, or get one of the cheap 4pc epee kits (which I assume do not use StM blades)?

I mean, with two StM setups and fancy cords, I'd already be halfway to owning both an epee and a foil kit (of lesser quality).

[the reluctant fencer]

At what level are you competing?
I have had a couple FIE STM blades and I have my reservations about them.
While I was polishing one to a mirror finish I started wet-sanding with 400 grit sandpaper. Very quickly I came upon large air pockets right under the surace of the metal. Maybe .25mm-.5mm across each and there were around 100 of them on the entire blade.
The thing is that there were lots of them in the area where most blades break, 8-12 inches from the end of the blade.
Thankfully with my polising and stress-riser removal I have't had any blades snap on me. I can tell when they get weak and so I will retire the blade rather than chance hurting an opponet.

For light club and small tournaments I would have no problem using an STM. In heavy competition I think I would pass or have it as a backup weapon.

TRF

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

*snip...regarding STM FIE*
While I was polishing one to a mirror finish I started wet-sanding with 400 grit sandpaper. Very quickly I came upon large air pockets right under the surace of the metal. Maybe .25mm-.5mm across each and there were around 100 of them on the entire blade.
The thing is that there were lots of them in the area where most blades break, 8-12 inches from the end of the blade.
TRF

Holy Lightly Scented Banana Hammers! Is this common? Has anyone else experienced this? Reluctant...do you have photos? Right now I'm very happy that I have never purchased a STM blade.

[the reluctant fencer]

Holy Lightly Scented Banana Hammers! Is this common? Has anyone else experienced this? Reluctant...do you have photos? Right now I'm very happy that I have never purchased a STM blade.

This blade was a 2006 model. I inspected many different STM blades and they all had this problem. I do not know if the problem has yet been fixed with the forgings.
I suspect that several other blades have the same problems but more internally "infected" rather than on the surface of the blade.
I'll get some pics.

[TBean]

EDITED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!11

Is it really worth investing in a better quality epee setup (StM blade, etc...) when I'm still planning on eventually fencing all three weapons? Should I maybe try to buy a couple of used epees off somebody at the club, or get one of the cheap 4pc epee kits (which I assume do not use StM blades)?

I mean, with two StM setups and fancy cords, I'd already be halfway to owning both an epee and a foil kit (of lesser quality).


(I'm going NON-FIE).

You have only been fencing since January, I honestly do not think you are ready to make this decision. That is why making your committment of resources is so difficult - you don't really know what you want. It sounds like investing in weapons is premature. Give yourself some more time to understand each weapon. While you may fence all three, one might be your primary competative weapon. You will want to invest most of your resources there for the best equipment possible. But you cannot make that choice now as you don't have enough experience, yet.

My suggestion, if possible, don't buy anything beyond a good uniform. Continue to train in all three weapons. Borrow or rent equipment from your club or team mates to compete in the short term. Does your division run dry tournaments for foil or saber? Try some of those to see how you like competing in the weapons.

Ultimately, you get what you pay for in terms of equipment - if you get the least expensive options on everything, you will be replacing those items very quickly at a larger cost to you in the long-run. What waiting a little bit gets you is more information on the best way to spend your money. Even if you decide you want to buy epee equipment for this tournament in May, you can order it at the beginning of April and be assured it will arrive to you in time.

My .02