Teaching the double disengage

[big daddy]

In teaching the double disengage or the "one two" Are both disengages done in the lunge or is only the final one done then?I have been teaching it as an advance with an extension then the one two but, it feels like a three tempo attack done in a two tempo distance. Give me some ideas.

[tdwg83]

I wouldn't give your students too much to think about when introducing a new skill. The point is to establish priority then decieve a parry twice. Consider starting to work with it from a Point In Line perspective first. This will let your students to start to learn what they are looking for in order to pull it off effectively. Once this concept is secure then throw in using it as an attack. When the idea is secure the action can be done ( and is probably more effective in two tempo instead of three. If it feels like a three temp attack done in two distance, then that is most likely how your students will percieve. To be effective it needs to be fluid with the lunge.

[jBirch]

We like to teach it with a step lunge. Extend in the feint on the movement of the front foot, disengage 1 on the back foot, disengage 2 on the lunge.

Hope this helps.

James.

[epeeslasher]

Is an advance-lunge really a two-tempo action? jBirch split the action into three peices corresponding to the footwork an each piece is a tempo. Each peice of blade work being done between transitions of the footwork.

I would define an advance-lunge as a three tempo movement with the priority of one tempo as a straight attack, but don't take my word for it, Maitre Jean Jacques Gillet states in his book, "The balestra is a combination of a jump forward and lunge. It executes a forward progression of the fencer in two motions, as compared to an Advance-lunge or Patinando which require three motions." and also "The advantage of the fleche lies in that it covers the distance of an advance-lunge in one movement (tempo). The advance-lunge requires three movements; the Balestra two (a jump and a lunge)." A movement according to him equals a tempo.

Some coaches say a foot tempo is equal to the sound of the number of times the feet hit the ground. Often coaches like to emphasize fencers to bring the back foot up as the front toes comes down on an advance, as a type of drill. Perhaps this is to keep the advance as one tempo and an advance-lunge as two (movements=tempo) as a means of efficiency of movements. Going by the sound rule, both feet hitting the ground at the same time would be a one tempo foot movement.

[Adler]

Originally Posted by tdwg83

The point is to establish priority then decieve a parry twice. Consider starting to work with it from a Point In Line perspective first.

Do mean that the student should be doing the disengages with a completely straight arm? If so i think this is a mistake as it's easier to decieve a parry with a partialy bent arm than a fully straight one.
A one-two should be a progressive action traveling towards the target not two disengages then lunge a straight arm on its own doesn't constitute a threat that needs to be parryed.

[epeeslasher]

It's just a method to help the student see the action visually and make the timing easier. The action should of course be done from a continuously extending arm once the student has gotten good with it from a straight arm.

I usually don't follow this method unless my students have trouble moving the point first, this will usually help them.

[Adler]

It is however ,in my opinion, fundementally wrong to teach the attack by one-two starting from a completely extended arm (compound derobements are another matter) as it is not only technically incorrect but it encourages other worse mistakes such as disengaging from the shoulder.

[fatfencer]

I think however that the most useful way is to teach one-two during the lunge of the advance lunge.

That way the defender has almost NO time to see the action and it gives them less time to esquive, duck.

You can do a feint on the advance and finish with one two. That gets the arm extending forward during the attack.

Imho,

FF

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by big daddy

In teaching the double disengage or the "one two" Are both disengages done in the lunge or is only the final one done then?

When are you parrying? I think that must have some bearing on the matter.

AE

[Adler]

Seeing that a one-two can be used in every part of fencing phrase as an attack, riposte, counter riposte, counter attack, Compound counter attack (finta in tempo) and renewal it should be taught with in a variety of situations and at diferent distances.
But if we're are dealing with beginners it should be taught in the easiest way under standard circumstances. Once the basic elements have been mastered the coach can then go on to do more complicated things i.e varying the distance, changing his response etc.
As for when the disengages come it depends on the situation (as Allen mentioned when the parries come).

[seven6ty]

I think it's easiest to teach beginners with a feint on the advance, and a disengage at the beginning of the lunge. However, it certainly is possible to do a 1-2 with only a lunge, and this is a great way to teach a student to keep their weight on their back leg, while extending their arm and front foot, do the disengage, and then complete the lunge by kicking off with the back leg. It helps to prevent fencers from doing the horrible "all at once" lunge, and helps with balance.

[LordShout]

I teach it by numbers, on a count of 1 they make a partial (1/3) extension, on a count of two the disengage once, on a count of three they disenegage again on a count of four they complete. Once they can do that I slowly have them do more actions per number, finally I have them blend it together into a continous extension.

[AaronK]

BD,
I couldn't really answer your question simply, because you could be asking about several different actions someone would call a one-two attack.
When the fencer makes a disengage would depend on which of these actions you want to teach:

What most people seem to be talking about here, I would call a feint-one-two. If you are making a feint to draw a parry, a disengage (that draws a second parry) and a final disengage to strike the opening target then it would depend on the opponent's timing of the parry. If as a coach you teach a specific timing to make a parry (such as on the final movement of a retreat) then that is the exact time your student should make a disengage.
Ideally your (attacking) student should be compelling their opponent's compound parry at a specific time (by virtue of the speed and distance) and be able to deceive it (thanks to their knowledge of the opponent, and ability to read the opponent's tells).

If you were coaching a one-two attack as it would have been called sometime in the past that means that the first movement started from engagement (most likely from a high-outside engagement "6th"), and the initial disengage would draw a parry, which would be deceived by the second disengage. In this case the timing for the first disengage would be on the attackers initiative rather than the defenders. A little easier for a beginner to do- a little more work for the coach to observe that the student doesn't begin to cheat on the first disengage and only disengage half-way.

Lastly, you could be talking about making a 1-2 attack where the opponent doesn't need to be involved at all (other than as a target). If the attacker makes a disengage into a closed line (without making blade contact), it may compel the defender to remain in that line (keeping it closed rather than risk opening it)- in this case the final disengage is made at the last second when it would be most difficult for the defender to react in time. If the defender actually attempts to make a parry- they are widening the inside line and moving away from the line they would have to parry...the attacking student may have to be ready to disengage in this case, but it would be similar to the case above- attacker initiates the first disengage and defender initiates the second by parrying.

In all 3 cases you can teach everything on the lunge, or separate each element to happen at different times during an advance-lunge. Teaching this movement for the first time it may be easier for the student to only coordinate one motion of the foot with one motion of the hand...teaching this to students with a little more experience it may be better to teach them to coordinate the actions in a variety of timings that are tactically relevant.

As for how many tempos are actually taking place- that depends on what you are defining as a tempo. If the fingerwork of the blade makes five motions and the feet make 3 motions- is that five tempos or three? If the fencer has been taught that as a single idea does that make it only one? What if you make five motions with the feet and only a single motion with the hand? As epeeslasher mentioned an advance-lunge can be thought of as three tempos...I have also head it defined as a single tempo (with regards to right of way). I would hesitate to define it in terms of tempo considering the flexibility in meaning of that term (I recall quite a few posts and a few articles about tempo and it's definition...) By contrast all of us have a much closer definition of the term "disengage" and would agree upon it's meaning (even those of us who would prefer to call the motion something else because technically you can't disengage without first starting from engagement).

[CaptChris]

As far as I am aware the timing for a 1-2 depends upon the timing of the response from the opponent.

There is a two-time, 1-2 attack, a progressive 1-2 attack and then a broken time 1-2 attack.

For beginners against beginners it may be more suitable to teach the two-time; where they parry too early. The first disengage on the step with a slight extension, then the second disengage on the lunge with the extension finishing.

The progressive 1-2 attack where the opponent parries a little later, so this means the two disengages must be done on one lunge. Then the broken time; where the opponent parries at the latest possible moment which forces the first disengage late on the lunge, then the final placing of the point after the lunge has finished.

[thekoby]

Originally Posted by CaptChris

For beginners against beginners it may be more suitable to teach the two-time; where they parry too early. The first disengage on the step with a slight extension, then the second disengage on the lunge with the extension finishing.

CaptChris gave the same example on how I teach my students the 1-2 Attack (as I call it). Step into the defender with a disengage and slight extension, then disengage again as you finish the extension and lunge.

Talking about tempo for this move I would suggest not using the advance-lunge, but more of the idea of a medium-paced advance followed by a lunge. The advance with the first disengage is slower than that of the advance in the advance-lunge, but faster than a regular adavance (basically to trick the oppenent into going for the fake disengage), then you explode into a lunge with a second disengage leaving the other fencer helpless to defend. <--that is basically how I explain it to all of my beginner students when I teach it to them.

[kuroutesshin]

The way it was tough to me was in a compound. The initial attack is just an inch short of the bell, and the first feint made when the parry initiates, and the second feint made with completion when the parry comes back to the other line.

I try to teach our community ed fencers in stages- "attack, attack feint, attack one-two," with varying distances to account for the distance needed to complete the action. When I do a one-two myself, I'm usually an inch short of the bell and raddoppio after the first feint to completion. Of course, I'm left-handed so it's a little different.

[thekoby]

Originally Posted by kuroutesshin

Of course, I'm left-handed so it's a little different.

Do you find that the one-two attack works in your favor, being left handed? I've got a first year foil student who is a southpaw and I've been working with him on a double-disengage style attack for a while as an introduction to methods of scoring points with an attack as opposed to traditional parry-riposte.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by thekoby

I've got a first year foil student who is a southpaw and I've been working with him on a double-disengage style attack for a while...

This seems like a VERY complicated action for a first year foil student to be building a game around.

AE

[kuroutesshin]

Originally Posted by thekoby

Do you find that the one-two attack works in your favor, being left handed? I've got a first year foil student who is a southpaw and I've been working with him on a double-disengage style attack for a while as an introduction to methods of scoring points with an attack as opposed to traditional parry-riposte.

I can't really use it against fellow lefties because I don't have a frame of reference for the engagement; I do much better with feints and the one-two against right-handers.

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

This seems like a VERY complicated action for a first year foil student to be building a game around.

AE

It's certainly a complex action, but is there really any harm in teaching it early? I don't know how often thekoby's students practice or take lessons, but I would think it depends on the person's skill level at the time.

I believe in introducing actions to students incrementally and slowly building competence while soldifying the basic actions; on Monday I worked with one of our younger fencers on the feint, and then the one-two. I don't expect them to be able to perform a successful one-two immediatly, that's what practice and lessons are for

[thekoby]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

This seems like a VERY complicated action for a first year foil student to be building a game around.

AE

I don't really teach it to everybody. This guy was an exception because he wanted to compete and wanted to know ways that he could score some points. I agree that it is a rather complicated action to be teaching first year students and typically refrain from teaching it until they have been to a few tournaments or specifically ask to learn it (and even then I try to avoid it).