Is US Fencing going bankrupt?

[teacup]

Don't you think it a comment on the current US system that it may be developmentally more worthwhile, take the same amount of time and expense for a cadet fencer to go to Europe rather than attend a US event?

Not to mention those athletes who have great potential but are unable to afford to go to either event.

[Phincer]

Would it be cheaper for the USFA to buy/lease a facility in a single centralized location (say Columbus Ohio) for the entire year and stop shipping equipment and strips all over the country?

We'll never know until the entire USFA budget system becomes public. Then we'll know how much venues cost, what revenue is brought in, etc.

The facility would not need to be as large as a convention center and it could be a more permanent facility. National training camps could be held in this facility. It could be rented out to private clubs or coaches during the week or on available weekends.

I'd like to be the first to ask for shower facilities in this more permanent facility. The plane ride back will be nicer for the fencer and the rest of the people on the plane.

[veeco]

Correct it may not save but shift.

Correct, some divisions may be able to pay for the referees out of their budgets while others may choose to add a surcharge to each fencer.

And it might shift the burden of the referee education more on the division or clubs than on the USFA. It would also ensure that divisions who bring more fencers get to spend more money on those referees than the USFA, who could then spend more of that same money on smaller divisions, increasing membership numbers there.

A ratio of a number of referees per number of fencers from that division or club is what gets done at most countries, and even at the FIE level, I believe.

[AndrewH]

Would it be cheaper for the USFA to buy/lease a facility in a single centralized location (say Columbus Ohio) for the entire year and stop shipping equipment and strips all over the country?

I recall this was on the agenda of a BoD meeting a couple years ago. The research indicated that it would be cost prohibitive.

[brtech]

I'm guessing forgetting to ship the crate with all the bout committee stuff in it (laptops, printers, etc... basically everything that goes on the stage) is one of those 'sloppy expenditures' you were referring to? (Richmond NAC - 2006). As we had to run out and buy all new stuff to run the tournament...

-w

I don't think this is correct. I can't remember if the shipment was hosed (again) by the trucking company or the warehouse didn't follow the shipping instructions. This happens quite a lot. Yes, we have changed shipping companies several times in the past. They are like the airlines, one is just as bad as the rest, none of them do what they say they will do. We use currently use Roadway. They break seals, reroute trucks and don't tell us when they screw up in time to do much about it. We have a somewhat better packing and marking process these days: all the crates that go to every event are marked specially, and all the other crates have two strips in them. So the instructions are easy (all the marked crates and # strips/2 others). Trucks are supposed to be sealed to the venue. We have waybills and armorers (and Christine) check with Roadway on progress. It still doesn't work.

[ivlobane]

I recall this was on the agenda of a BoD meeting a couple years ago. The research indicated that it would be cost prohibitive.

So what's not cost prohibitive? Flying in and housing refs from all over the place? Then have half of them stand around half the time? And have a Gia Abashidze ref women's veteran's EPEE?!! Maybe Stanislav Pozdnyakov should be hired to run the hot dog stand at our next event. Hell, lets get Pavel Kolobkov to teach powerpoint skills to the ED! And while we're at it, one might as well pay Aida Mohammed and Sylvia Gruhala to model for the next USFA calendar..! Wait.. that could actually be worth it!

[AndrewH]

So what's not cost prohibitive? Flying in and housing refs from all over the place? Then have half of them stand around half the time? And have a Gia Abashidze ref women's veteran's EPEE?!! Maybe Stanislav Pozdnyakov should be hired to run the hot dog stand at our next event. Hell, lets get Pavel Kolobkov to teach powerpoint skills to the ED! And while we're at it, one might as well pay Aida Mohammed and Sylvia Gruhala to model for the next USFA calendar..! Wait.. that could actually be worth it!

True, maybe over the long run there would be cost savings, but it's just an issue of having large fixed costs up front.

Also I'm sure there was the usual protests about where exactly such a facility should be located. If anyone has an archive of past minutes I'm sure the rationale is in there somewhere.

[Faire]

I recall this was on the agenda of a BoD meeting a couple years ago. The research indicated that it would be cost prohibitive.

Were they researching the lease/purchase of a LARGE facility big enough to run a marathon NAC? It would be more reasonable if they looked for a SMALLER facility and ran single weapon events.

[teacup]

Foil and sabre don't really need grounded strips so single weapon regional or national events held in large sports facilities rather than convention centres could reduce overall shipping costs.

[AndrewH]

Foil and sabre don't really need grounded strips so single weapon regional or national events held in large sports facilities rather than convention centres could reduce overall shipping costs.

Ahem. I like having traction when I fence. The ability to change direction quickly really adds a lot to the sabre game...

[veeco]

There are materials that can be used to provide traction on ungrounded surfaces, AFAIK.

[keith]

There are materials that can be used to provide traction on ungrounded surfaces, AFAIK.

cleats and a football pitch?

[AndrewH]

There are materials that can be used to provide traction on ungrounded surfaces, AFAIK.

It's just not the same as the sandpaper strips. I've fenced on rubber mats rolled out as strips, and run into the problem of too MUCH traction. Potential for injury there.

[HDG]

Foil and sabre don't really need grounded strips so single weapon regional or national events held in large sports facilities rather than convention centres could reduce overall shipping costs.

I don't like constant halts in foil caused by spazzes who hit ungrounded floor.

[teacup]

I don't like constant halts in foil caused by spazzes who hit ungrounded floor.

Okay, everyone needs the strips. I just thought if a regional cadet circuit was organized it could be a way to save costs.

[KD5MDK]

NACs are currently sized into their current price range. For example, in order to accomodate enough strips to make things run in a day, we need lots of space. 100k feet minimum, it seems. We had twice that in Dallas and things went pretty well.

That usually means Convention Centers.

In order to useConvention Centers we need hotels with hundreds of rooms nearby. We have to use high end business hotels because others just aren't large enough.

In order to find hotels and convention centers we can afford, we need to go to 2nd tier areas for fencing (because the Northeast and California are too expensive) in the off season so that we can find a venue.

That means we need to fly in most of our staff, because there are never enough locals of sufficient quality to man the strips and tables.


That means we need to raise lots of money to pay for all of the above.

There would be a lot more options in all of the above (all local referees in New England, cheaper hotels with smaller events, smaller venues with fewer strips) if tournament sizes went down. However, lots of people seem dedicated to their giant national tournaments, and that's an important issue that needs to be addressed.

[teacup]

There would be a lot more options in all of the above (all local referees in New England, cheaper hotels with smaller events, smaller venues with fewer strips) if tournament sizes went down. However, lots of people seem dedicated to their giant national tournaments, and that's an important issue that needs to be addressed.

Thanks, I actually am aware of why national events are located in out of the way locations because I have researched quite a few venues and realize how hard it is to host these events in large cities due to price constraints.

Yet, I still would like to suggest that a radical overhaul be considered. Perhaps it has but it seems to me that the current structure will remain in place until 2012. I am pretty sure that contracts are already signed for venues for two years from now. The tournament Task Force Committee was asking for input two years ago since then not much has changed. The RYC/SYC implementation has been good though.

I believe that people do indeed want more fencing. Yes, they do want to go to National events because that is where there is a guarantee of a strong showing of fencers, they get to hang out with fencing friends from all over the country and maybe earn National points so they get to go to another event in the summer. But National events do not have to be every weapon and sex lasting over four days.

If Junior and Cadet points were given at strong regional events, it may curtail the growth in National events and also give athletes who are not financially well off a chance to compete.

There are not enough events for men's epee fencers aged 20 - 40 with a C and above. Maybe the rating system is broken, maybe it's because you don't need right of way refs, whatever, there are just more men's epee fencers. They want to fence, so all of them sign up for the Div I National events. Next year there will be over ME 300 fencers.

There was a huge growth in Div II/III. Two years ago I submitted a proposal to break Summer Nationals up into three events to help deal with the growth. My proposal may have had some issues but the solution from the USFA was to restrict the qualification paths. Meaning even fewer events for some fencers.

Briefly these are some of my suggestions. Please don't shoot them down immediately. In one sentence there isn't much of a chance for defense.

- two day single weapon events both regional and/or national

- regional events which award points, calculated with a strength factor

- men's epee points down to 64, ME 10% of the field gets points, WS 40%, something needs to be fixed

- all award points calculated with a strength factor

- remove the Y14 event from the November NAC (The Y14 ME fencers say, Heh, might as well fence junior since I am already here. I'll be out early so we can fly home by noon. This causes the Cadet and Jr events to be huge, with kids that really shouldn't be there. The top fencers end up in a bracket from hell and knock each other out going into the round of 64. Same thing happens in Div I.)

- add another Div I ME and for the other weapons maybe a Div I/II but again with single weapon events it would be easier to add different variations

- add regional Vets events, again awarding points, maybe even regional team events

- get rid of the sections and create regions instead

- add regional team events

- allow composite teams at both national and regional team events. Lots of clubs may not have three strong junior/senior women fencers able or willing to fly to a national event but two small clubs may have three women.

- fix the qualifying path for teams, allow petitions

- change the numbers qualified to 1-3 fencers 1, 3 - 15 fencers 4 anything to stop the fence off for third place.

- break the SN into three events
Memorial Day weekend - Youth Championships (or make the April NAC the Youth Championships
July 4th - Div II/III/Vets/Sr. team
Labor Day weekend - Div I/Jr/Cadet/U19 Team

- maybe reconfigure the Oct NAC to include Jr to start their season, there are a few options but aligning the Jr. and Cadet season with the International season not only shortens the season to avoid burnout but would enable kids to take summer courses, jobs etc. (The season has grown too long.) Clubs can still hold camps, they would just be later in the summer.

- create a Cadet Circuit which awards points similar to the SYC's or let organizers add a Cadet to SYC's. Fencers aged 12 and 13, especially women, need more competition experience. I would rather have a 12 year girl in a women's event than a Y14 mixed but they can't fence due to the under 13 rule. Single sex local Cadet events are usually just not strong enough, regional cadet events would be much better.

- restructure the point system for team selection to the best 6 or 8 of all the events rather than best four domestic and international points being added on top. Our fencers do need to fence internationally but under the current system those with greater financial means do have an edge. Yes, there are performance awards but you have to get to the tournament in the first place in order to do well. For the past two years, Cadet Men's Epee has only had one international cadet event with no strength factor consideration. Those points are added on top to the best of four domestic.

I am not "awarding points like candy". The reason SYC's have become so successful is because points are the incentive for people to go. Heck, cash prices for Veterans is probably just as good an incentive.

There are strong regional tournaments already out there that the USFA could support even more. Bring back the "Duel in the Desert".

Yes, lots of great people have come up with similar and even better suggestions than these and there are probably lots of problems with my ideas. I have gone on way much more than I should but the bottom line is, I think a major overhaul is needed. People want to fence and the US wants to win Olympic medals. Yes, it is an expensive sport spread out over a big country but there must be solutions. Oh well, let's just hope for a bigger font.

I apologize for my vent. Better go now.

[Clammermom]

Why not charge $5/fencer or less for every sanctioned event in the country? It would reduce the shortfall and may actually produce a surplus in a couple of years.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Maybe we should just leave fencing to the euros.

[bunbury]

- break the SN into three events
Memorial Day weekend - Youth Championships (or make the April NAC the Youth Championships
July 4th - Div II/III/Vets/Sr. team
Labor Day weekend - Div I/Jr/Cadet/U19 Team

This would make holding SN a balls ton more expensive, having to fly people in on 3 separate weekends, not to mention having the Div I/Jr/Cadet (U19 = junior) being after the Olympics and pretty near world champs...

It comes down to stupid spending on the USFA's part. I run the math every which way and I don't understand how they can be losing money and there are plenty of ways for them to be making money in other places. Hell, stop mailing crap out; leave the option for electronic-only on the entry form... that alone would save hundreds of dollars. Charge vendors a fee for being there. At the last NAC in Atlanta, there were 1723 fencers, including duplications. Assuming that a third of them fenced 2 events, that's $136,764. Have a ref/cost ratio; if it costs $500 to fly him or her out, tell them no thanks, maybe next time.