Maintaining and improving plasticity

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

These Great Tits may beg to differ.

Even if it's not entirely a question of genetics, then it's still a safe bet that the majority of environmental factors are in place prior to being exposed to the fencing coach.

We can learn a lot about motivation from observing Great Tits.

No doubt, the student comes to the coach with loads of things affecting their motivation, assertiveness, etc. Some is genetic, some environmental. (Maybe their parents fed them spiders.)

However, there is still an influence a coach can have on their motivation. There is even possibly a greater affect that a solid program can have on their motivation.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Jason

We can learn a lot about motivation from observing Great Tits.

No doubt, the student comes to the coach with loads of things affecting their motivation, assertiveness, etc. Some is genetic, some environmental. (Maybe their parents fed them spiders.)

However, there is still an influence a coach can have on their motivation. There is even possibly a greater affect that a solid program can have on their motivation.

I agree that a coach can certainly have an effect. My only point was that I am coming to believe that a coach can not have an additive, or increasing effect. They can only reduce a student's innate motivation/curiosity. They can't increase it.

And one of the reasons why this is intuitively wrong in most of us coaches, is because it is one of the major pillars upon which our hope and aspiration rests. If we have no motivational effect, then what good are we to the athlete?

In this case, a good coach (like a good teacher) is simply one that gets out of the way of the athlete and allows them to learn optimally by providing knowledge, tools and resources in areas the student is lacking.

But maybe I'm just becoming cynical as time goes on.

James.

[Bryn Ralph]

Perhaps, Mr. Epee, it a relative matter of the appropriate level of dopamine in the brain. And thanks for the wee tits!

[Hauptman]

I would have to say that it is definitely possible to significantly motivate others, but that it is a rare talent/skill set. I've seen it first hand... coaches, parents, bosses who were great motivators and leaders. Also, from what I've observed, if you don't have the natural personality traits it will be extremely difficult to develop them.

For example, I worked as a sales manager for a large, well-known, high-tech company. They hired the best of the best from every other company out there, and while I was good at what I did some of my fellow managers were just incredible. I worked very hard at learning/emulating some of the techniques and styles these managers used to motivate their people and while I saw some success it was a style so different from my personality/talents that it was impossible to sustain. It was literally exhausting on top of the other elements of the job.

So my conclusion is that if you have the talent be a great teacher AND be a great businessperson AND be a great motivator.....well, you're one helluva a talent.

That's my two cents.

[mfp]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

These Great Tits may beg to differ.

Well if you're playing "motivation, nature vs nurture and fencing" then I'll see your Great Tits and go "all in" with the most motivated fencers in nature: Pseudobiceros hancockanus

Be sure to watch the video on that page -- it's pretty special.

[Pseudobiceros hancockanus is also the name of a Bay Area epee team and has to be one of the best fencing team names Ever.]

[Rick Thompson]

jBirch wrote:

Finally, I'm not entirely convinced that good fencers are intelligent fencers. To me, well trained fencers (ie// fencers with excellent fencing "reflexes") will trump more intelligent but less well-trained fencers every time.

In the short run, this may be true. However, a more intelligent fencer, as the physical skill increases, will usually find ways to adapt and overcome a less-intelligent-but-well-trained fencer. Much relies upon the coach and their ability to encourage the fencers to think for themselves.

Further, I haven't been able to perceive much performance difference between equally trained fencers where one is more intelligent then the other. In fact, the less intelligent (but still highly trained fencer) often does better (perhaps because the coach is doing the thinking for them??)

One issue is that there may not be all that much difference between the intelligence quotient of experienced fencers. Think about the kind of people this sport attracts and keeps. We rarely keep athletes whose primary capabilities involve only muscular prowess.

The last statement about a coach doing the thinking for a fencer - I feel this is anathema to the true development of a fencer / competitor. A fencer MUST be able to analyse their actions and change their game during a bout. A coach standing on the sidelines continually telling them what actions to execute accomplishes only A) distracting the fencer from his/her opponent, B) annoying the referee & other spectators and C) taking the glory from the fencer for the win while heaping the blame on them for a loss.

One of the components of the "plasticity" in the OP *must* be the ability to adapt to the immediate situation, as well as long-term adapability.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by jBirch

I've found coaches to be very effective DEMOTIVATORS, but to actually motivate the fencer to do something?

Not so sure...

Have you an example of getting a student to sucessfully want to do something that the student initiatially didn't already want to do?

James.

Sorry about the delayed reply here; RL has been very demanding of my time over the last few days.

While I can't think of any instances of a coach convincing a student who absolutely, no how, no way was going to do a certain thing otherwise, I have been a party to many coaches over time raising the motivation levels of their students. I have done this myself and had it done to me; it happens all the time. Some coaches get students excited in a short period of time with pep talks, some create a very high energy atmosphere where motivation is sort of infections, some do both.

I can think of many fencers in college, the high school team I coached and several clubs that I have coached at that started out as rather indifferent or even antipathetic to the sport in general, the concept of heavy exercise, teamwork, or what have you, that grew to accept and even enjoy that sort of work over time. Please forgive me if I do not name them or give the exact details of students or incidents, but if you really want me to I will list a few stories.

Is it just the coach? Generally, no. It certainly doesn't take place just in private lessons or group drills or even open bouting. It's something that a whole club or team, at least IMO, has to take a part in. But then, the coach's job isn't just giving lessons or running classes. As Mr E once said (and I believe this was referenced in this thread) the most successful coaches are the ones who create an environment conducive to training, and as far as I'm concerned, an overall high level of motivation is required to have quality training.

[jBirch]

Perhaps...but I'm still not convinced. There is, in training high performance athletes, a certain level of engagement that is required from the fencer upon which the rest of the training rests. Without that commitment, nothing can be done.

Fencers that "find motivation", IMHO, find something non-intrinsic to fencing that cause them to become better fencers in order to reach that tangential goal. They don't really like fencing, but they like something that fencing allows them to achieve, be it fame or glory or acceptance or whatever.

In situations where the coach finds these external "motivators", do they really motivate their fencer or simply retain them a little longer then would otherwise be the case?

James.

[bigfirststep]

One aspect of plasticity that hasn't been discussed yet is the role the coach can play in anticipating and managing the risk that the fencer may fence worse, at least temporarily, when he or she is trying to learn something new. I've seen coaches try to teach a new skill, or modify an old habit, right before a big tournament. To add insult to injury, then the coach gets upset when the fencer does not perform up to expectations. The better the student, the more they risk, in the short term, if they try to step outside of their comfort level. For the student, it's almost a leap of faith that a new, uncomfortable, approach will ever produce anything of use to them. So one way to add or preserve plasticity might be to manage this risk better.

[Mr Epee]

This word, plasticity, I do not think it means what you think it means...

Inconceivable!

Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE find a word that doesn't already have a specific meaning in a related field. Pretty please with sugar on top?

You don't have to use it, but here is one possiblity

Teachable: Willing and able to learn.

Doesn't that describe what RIT said he was talking about in the first place?

[RITFencing]

Mr. E: I think that's a very good word choice, but with one caveat: Teachable, at least to me, implies that all learning being done is coming from a teacher/coach. It think the fencer should be open to new input/info from more angles than that, so maybe open mindedness? That still seems a bit off, though.

James: Yes, the athlete is responsible for most of it, but I still think the coach has an effect. Currently, I'm thinking of it this way: each athlete has a natural upper and lower limit for motivation, but the coach can be one of the big determining factors (and has direct or indirect influence on many other factors) that say where in that range the athlete's motivation falls, and possibly how the limits increase and diminish over time.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

This word, plasticity, I do not think it means what you think it means...

Inconceivable!

Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE find a word that doesn't already have a specific meaning in a related field. Pretty please with sugar on top?

You don't have to use it, but here is one possiblity

Teachable: Willing and able to learn.

Doesn't that describe what RIT said he was talking about in the first place?

I'm not so sure "Teachable" is the appropriate term. That to me describes exactly what you're saying - willing and able to learn. I see the OP as referring to something a little more nebulous - the ability to incorporate major changes to a fencer's game. This could come from a coach, yes (in which case, "teachable" certainly applies), but it could come from other sources as well (competitive experiences, video review, sports psychology).

The idea of Plasticity, while it DOES have other connotations, may play a significant role here. Here's something to consider: The actual "rewiring" of specific neural pathways may play a significant part of improved performance of an athlete. What does it take to overcome a "bad" habit and replace it with a "good" habit? Or, how about developing a new reflexive action? Often times, we're looking at sub-conscious level of action (although, this is certainly not all of the story, by any stretch of the imagination).

I see this actually as being more of a "motivational" issue than physiology.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by oso97

I'm not so sure "Teachable" is the appropriate term. That to me describes exactly what you're saying - willing and able to learn. I see the OP as referring to something a little more nebulous - the ability to incorporate major changes to a fencer's game. This could come from a coach, yes (in which case, "teachable" certainly applies), but it could come from other sources as well (competitive experiences, video review, sports psychology).

For the record, I wasn't trying to define teachable. I simply copied the definition from the dictionary. The definition seemed to fit at least some of what RIT was talking about.

I don't know exactly what the correct term is for what RIT is trying to discuss... I suspect that this is probably because he is trying to discuss too many different independent factors through the use of an over simplified umbrella catch word.

It doesn't help that the word folks in his region are using has already been assigned to mean something totally different.

The idea of Plasticity, while it DOES have other connotations, may play a significant role here. Here's something to consider: The actual "rewiring" of specific neural pathways may play a significant part of improved performance of an athlete. What does it take to overcome a "bad" habit and replace it with a "good" habit? Or, how about developing a new reflexive action? Often times, we're looking at sub-conscious level of action (although, this is certainly not all of the story, by any stretch of the imagination).

This is an interesting subject, and probably deserves it's own thread, if anyone is interested (or remotely qualified) to discuss it. We will know much more about this subject over the next few decades, as this field of research is (by all accounts) booming.

Again, this is exactly why we probably shouldn't assign a new meaning to the word.... to avoid confusion in future discussion.

I see this actually as being more of a "motivational" issue than physiology.

Ah... the "lead a horse to water and make him drink" approach.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

There are lots of hard, unbendy things that are made out of plastic. Medicine bottles, guitar pick guards, ect. Maybe queso-ish is a better word. Nobody makes anything hard out of queso dip.

Perhaps flexibility is related to motivation, or dissatisfaction.

I've never felt the need to change anything that works, and I havent had a problem changing what didn't work.

Maybe some fencers (Read: fencers who don't care enough.) just don't put in the effort to improve and change their game?

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Ah... the "lead a horse to water and make him drink" approach.

I dunno... I think there's more to motivation than making someone do something. It's getting them to want to do it themselves.

[Mr Epee]

The sculptor Michelangelo was once asked how it was that he could create such beautiful works. "It's very simple," he answered. "When I look at a block of marble, I see the sculpture inside it. All I have to do is remove what doesn't belong."

There's a big difference between carving marble and molding clay.

I'm just more of a marble kinda guy. I'm just that classy.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

The sculptor Michelangelo was once asked how it was that he could create such beautiful works. "It's very simple," he answered. "When I look at a block of marble, I see the sculpture inside it. All I have to do is remove what doesn't belong."

There's a big difference between carving marble and molding clay.

I'm just more of a marble kinda guy. I'm just that classy.

I'm definitely more of a clay kind, if those are the choices.

*insert awful pun about losing marbles here*

[jBirch]

Maybe some fencers (Read: fencers who don't care enough.) just don't put in the effort to improve and change their game?

My point exactly.

James.