Wearing a jacket while given/taking lessons

[LordShout]

I'll preface this question by saying that I'm by no means a professional coach, I'm the men's team captain at a decently good university club team.

When I take lessons over the summer (not at uni) my coach does not have me where I jacket, I love this and from what I've seen of other coaches (most comically perhaps in the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE2NMrqCGaI as mentioned in AE's blog) it is at least somewhat popular.

What do established professional coaches think about this? I'd like to let my fencers spend a few more minutes (our gym is often very hot) out of there jackets if I could.

[Allen Evans]

Cross-examining attorney: Were you aware that your NGB demands that full uniforms be worn when executing fencing actions in a lesson or practice?

Coach: Yes.

Cross-examining attorney: Yet, your student wasn't wearing a jacket--in direct violation of this policy--when your blade broke and injured him, is that correct?

Coach: Yes.

Cross-examining attorney: No further questions.

[LordShout]

Ahh yes.

What I suppose I should have asked is: With the manifest and obvious reasons against this why do many high level coaches seem to allow it? I suppose one could make an arguement that if the risk is low enough, and for most intermdiate slower drills it could very well be, the increased comfort and concentration levels might provide a good incentive.

[Eskrimador]

The main reason for not wearing a jacket is that it allows the coach to see if the student's shoulder and body position is correct. Tightening of the shoulder often leads to incorrect actions but if the coach can't see it, he/she might think the problem is something else. That being said, the late Csaba Eltes would just hit his students (only males) across the legs so it wouldn't matter if they were wearing jackets or not.

[Durando]

You're also watching the elite of the elite in that video--it is absolutely state-of-the-art épée, both student and coach. Allen coaches in an insanely legalistic country and he is without a doubt right to manage his salle in the way he does. Although I am somewhat absolved of worrying about lawyers, I am not an elite coach. My students sometimes reach the level of the merely good. They wear their jackets because I cannot say to them, "This is a lesson about attack into preparation with a possible remise." (The lesson in the video is about attack into prep. It is breathtaking and not in the least comical). Until my young students can reliably calculate and execute attacks in distance, there's no point in allowing them to wear t-shirts, as I will certainly be following their actions with counterattacks or remises.

Another comment I would have is that when I'm giving lessons, there is bouting going on. It takes too much time allow students (even adults) to change clothes. That being said, I regularly took lessons in the U.S. without my jacket and do so here in France. I'm pretty confident that, within the confines of lesson tempo I can handle what gets thrown at me. Should we be drilling infighting, however, I of course wear a jacket.

[RITFencing]

I generally prefer to give lessons in full gear for two reasons:

1) Safety.

2) Closer approximation of a bout.

The first is self explanatory. For the second, we compete in full kit, and I want to make my students' lessons, bouts, drills, etc, as close to competition as is feasible. This is not a huge difference, but can provide just a bit more similarity to what they are training for, especially for beginners.

However, the students tend to be much more comfortable when in shorts and a tshirt (as well as mask and glove.) I'm not really frightened of giving lessons like that, especially in foil, but on the extremely small chance of a slip up, I suppose it is nicer to have the student in a jacket. There are some lessons, more tactically driven and given to higher level fencers, where I will require them to wear a uniform, but that is because I will really be trying to hit them.

That being said, that lesson was gorgeous. I wish I could get a video of it in high res with a fast framerate. The timing, distance and technique exhibited there was superb, and I would love to be able to study it more closely, both as a fencer and a coach.

[Allen Evans]

It's pretty easy to tell if a student has a blocked shoulder, even when they are wearing a jacket. Hell, often I can tell when my students are holding their breath (which many beginners do) even when they are in full kit.

The biggest reasons I've found for not wearing a jacket in a lesson is student comfort, ease of movement, and execution at speed. I spent a lot of time in clubs without air conditioning, and I often took a lesson in shorts, a t-shirt, glove, and mask. Since many of my lessons were a half an hour long, fencing sans jacket was probably the only thing that kept me from passing out.

It's also important that these lessons were very choreographed technical exercises, and not tactical lessons. I always knew what I was supposed to do, and when it was supposed to happen. This increased the level of safety quite a bit.

Another reason I could go without wearing a jacket is because I knew my coach was never going to hit me. Fencing in the old French school of technique triumphing over tactics, he usually pulled his attacks and ripostes.

This is the biggest reason that I make all of my students wear a jacket. When they screw up, I score against them. Sometimes I score against then when they don't screw up, just to keep them on their toes. At this point in my career, I could probably give a lesson in which I could make reasonably convincing attacks against a student that leaves my blade an inch off of their chest, but why work that hard? Rather than yelling in a foreign language or smacking my students in the legs (ala Elthes) I simply score against the student as a means of error correction.

The video is not justification for giving a student a lesson without the student wearing proper gear. Remember, you ain't them, as Durando points out*.

AE

*Don't get me wrong here....I ain't them, either. This is a fantastic lesson done at high speed by one of the best fencers and coaches in the world.

[darius]

No jackets is so passé. In Ghent, one of the WS coaches was giving lessons to students not wearing MASKS. I saw this at the Cadet Int'l in Koblenz, too, but it was lower-level.

I hear in Europe, you can't sue the ski resort if you hurt yourself intentionally skiing off-piste. How quaint!

darius

[stritti]

Wearing a jacket while given/taking lessons

no question for me , we have a rule to wear all time the full fencingdress

Al

[rudd]

My understanding is that it's a requirement for all fencers in Germany. In other European countries that I've taken lessons (Ireland, UK, France, Poland) it was always in a shorts, t-shirt, mask and glove with one exception when it was a German coach giving the lesson.

I have occasionally take a "hit" from a coach but in such a controlled manner there was no risk of injury or sense of risk.

[Adler]

Originally Posted by darius

No jackets is so passé. In Ghent, one of the WS coaches was giving lessons to students not wearing MASKS. I saw this at the Cadet Int'l in Koblenz, too, but it was lower-level.

Whilst on a coaching course I was shown a video of Imre Vass giving an epee lesson to a maskless fencer which involved a lot of opposistion hits in the highline and renewals by fleche at times Vass's point was less than six inches away from the fencer eye which made me cringe.

In the UK I believe all under 18s are required to take lessons whilst wearing jacket, plastron, mask and glove. The Club and schools I coach at generally require fullkit during individual lesson.

[flyingfencer]

Originally Posted by darius

No jackets is so passé. In Ghent, one of the WS coaches was giving lessons to students not wearing MASKS. I saw this at the Cadet Int'l in Koblenz, too, but it was lower-level.

I hear in Europe, you can't sue the ski resort if you hurt yourself intentionally skiing off-piste. How quaint!

darius

That's the same here at least in Colorado. The law in Colorado is you accept the risk and liability of the dangers of skiing, and the resort is absolved of most kinds of liability.

As far as jackets, many of the competitive foil fencers take lessons in t-shirts, shorts, and simple plastrons.

[AaronK]

I think this is an interesting question because let's look at it from a slightly different perspective:
There is a precedent for both the requirement to wear gear, and the absence of full gear while taking (and giving) lessons.

Now what about the coach? Though there can be an argument made as to what defines full gear for a fencer, what constitutes coaching equipment? While the rules cover the specifics about what a fencer is required to wear (if someone REALLY wanted to cover their buts in a US court I would think that they would be requiring their fencers to be wearing full 800nw whites, including plastron, and a 1600nw mask)- it does not specify any regulations about coaches equipment. Some coaches I suppose might wear the same gear as their fencers- though I am sure that is nowhere near the majority of coaches.
Considering that the goal of a lesson is for the student's success, the coach is at far greater risk for an accident than the student (The coach should be receiving the majority of blows).

I think that the issue comes down to: is there a separate safety standard for practice than there is for competition?

Reading Allan's post I am pretty much in agreement: the experienced coach doesn't really need to see the body without a jacket on to tell when something is amiss. The (safe) reason to give a lesson sans jacket is because the coach knows they are not going to hit their student and the risk of heat-stroke is far greater than the risk of injury (due to the absence of gear)- though it's really a matter of comfort for the student. (After all, why the heck would a foil coach want to wear shorts and a coaching vest over a t-shirt...are they crazy? I'd venture because they know how hot a full-sleeve leather jacket and long pants can be regardless of the air-conditioning status.)

[jychuah]

when i was at CC last year, gary copeland gave demonstrations without wearing full coaching gear. specifically, he had a student make hits on his leg while he wasn't wearing a leg protector. in fact, he was wearing wind pants. (that particular student commented to me, "good god, i didn't know if i was going to slip up and accidentally kill a fencing legend!") later, at the end of the week during the practical, i volunteered to be someone's student and went in without full gear (short sleeve epee jacket, no coaching sleeve, bare arms) and he made me put on at least a sleeve. it kind of demonstrated a huge issue of trust between coach and student, or a trust a coach should have in himself if he's going to conduct the lesson that way. looking back on it, though, i'll probably never give lessons to a fencer who's not in full uniform.

[griffindm]

Originally Posted by Eskrimador

The main reason for not wearing a jacket is that it allows the coach to see if the student's shoulder and body position is correct. Tightening of the shoulder often leads to incorrect actions but if the coach can't see it, he/she might think the problem is something else. That being said, the late Csaba Eltes would just hit his students (only males) across the legs so it wouldn't matter if they were wearing jackets or not.

This would usually be followed by his accented voice suggesting "Perhaps you should do another sport, like bowling".

I loved that line.

[ViewtifulMisho]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Sometimes I score against then when they don't screw up, just to keep them on their toes.

Off topic, but I wanted to point out that I find this extremely productive with my students. It introduces the very important idea that there's no such thing as a perfect action in fencing.

[randomsabreur]

Depends on the purpose of the lesson. If the lesson is about the student correctly executing an attack, correctly executing hitting exercises, and other precision things, with no real tactical element, then no problems with student taking the lesson in shorts, glove, mask and T-Shirt. Possibly add an underplastron/chest protector if more convenient from a time point of view...

If the lesson is about timing parries, timing attacks where the the opponent is counter attacking and moving into a tactical lesson, then full kit is essential.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by randomsabreur

.... no problems with student taking the lesson in shorts, glove, mask and T-Shirt. Possibly add an underplastron/chest protector if more convenient from a time point of view...

Does your National Governing Body have a policy on this?

AE

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Does your National Governing Body have a policy on this?

AE

Yes.

http://www.britishfencing.com/Attach...guidelines.pdf

[Delta]

I don't wear a jacket for lessons, but to continue Eskrimador's point, it's much easier to see the shoulder muscles properly engage AND relax after making a hit. Bulky jackets (especally cotton) make this difficult to see when the coach is looking for other points of improvement.

Also, risk is low with an intermediate to infinity and beyond fencers.