Wearing a jacket while given/taking lessons

[FreshPrinceofEWU]

I didn't wear my jacket in class today because the gym was unusually hot and I paid for it. Mental note, WEAR YOUR JACKET!

*I know i'm white as a ghost*

[Adler]

Originally Posted by FreshPrinceofEWU

I didn't wear my jacket in class today because the gym was unusually hot and I paid for it. Mental note, WEAR YOUR JACKET!

*I know i'm white as a ghost*

Did this happen during a lesson or whilst free fencing?
If it was during a lesson i suggest you find another coach if it was free fencing (or any situation where you're recieving hits) why the hell weren't you wearing a jacket?.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Adler

.... why the hell weren't you wearing a jacket?

Maybe he's an "infinity and beyond" fencer?

[Gav]

I am not sure I understand what the problem is. I take a lesson all the time in in mask and glove. No jacket required. I trust my coach and I know I am not going to be hit. If I did receive an in jury I am even willing to accept it's my fault. I see no problem with that.

I also don't mind taking a lesson in full kit - I just prefer not to.

Basically, as the person receiving the lesson, I see it as my choice.

Coach should always be wearing protective clothing (note that the coach in the linked video is head to toe in protective leather).

Unfortunately I am also aware of how litigous the US is. So, I suppose, I can understand why someone might want to pose the question.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Delta

Bulky jackets (especally cotton) make this difficult to see when the coach is looking for other points of improvement.

Looking at the shoulder is not the only way to see if it is tensed - and if it is badly tensed it is obvious through pretty much any jacket since the whole weapon shoulder/head/neck area is affected. If it is more subtle the more general place it shows up is in the hand wrist. Clench your shoulder, even lightly, and the whole arm goes of - spead of extension/withdrawal, overly wristy blade actions etc etc.

Originally Posted by Delta

Also, risk is low with an intermediate to infinity and beyond fencers.

Not really. Any miscommunication can result in injury - if a student decides to lunge when they should parry they are going to pick up a nasty bruise (especially in epee). Of course many coaches are good enough that they don't miscommunicate or are quick enough to withdraw their blade. For the rest of us keeping a pupil in a jacket is sensible.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by LordShout

I'll preface this question by saying that I'm by no means a professional coach, I'm the men's team captain at a decently good university club team.

When I take lessons over the summer (not at uni) my coach does not have me where I jacket, I love this and from what I've seen of other coaches (most comically perhaps in the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE2NMrqCGaI as mentioned in AE's blog) it is at least somewhat popular.

What do established professional coaches think about this? I'd like to let my fencers spend a few more minutes (our gym is often very hot) out of there jackets if I could.

There's another couple of these vids. I can't remember which but there's another that's really entertaining.

Wonder where I stuck the HQ versions...

[FreshPrinceofEWU]

Originally Posted by Adler

Did this happen during a lesson or whilst free fencing?
If it was during a lesson i suggest you find another coach if it was free fencing (or any situation where you're recieving hits) why the hell weren't you wearing a jacket?.

We were having a lesson for a while so I decided not to wear one and then we got into some free fencing and I figured that I didn't need it. We have a really poor selection of jackets (underfunded college PE course), so I figured I would be okay. The first guy I went against hit extremely hard and most of that damage was done in the first few rounds. The small red marks are gone this morning but I still have one hell of a sore shoulder. I think that i'll be purchasing my own jacket later this week.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Cross-examining attorney: Were you aware that your NGB demands that full uniforms be worn when executing fencing actions in a lesson or practice?
{snip}.

Just curious, but where does the USFA demand that full uniforms be worn while getting/giving a lesson-or at any other time than during a sanctioned competition, for that matter?

--Philistine

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Philistine

Just curious, but where does the USFA demand that full uniforms be worn while getting/giving a lesson-or at any other time than during a sanctioned competition, for that matter?

The bout committee members at every NAC regularly make announcements that no training can take place -- even lessons -- without both fencers being in uniform. Bout committee members at NACs have been told that they have the responsilbity to stop any lesson in progress and insist that a uniform be worn (I have seen this happen). I have seen referees and bout committee members at local tournaments in Virginia do the same. The USFA's Coaches College also enforces the full uniform requirement, and I believe it is actually stated in the written manuals for the CC courses. It might also be outlined in the USFA athlete handbook (I haven't read a copy in a bit) though I doubt it.

Does announcements or mentions in the CC handbooks give theforce of law or an "official" policy? I couldn't tell you (its mention in a Coaches College handbook might be sufficient to be an official policy) since I'm not an attorney. However, if someone WAS injured when not wearing full equipment, certainly the announcements made at NAC's, requirements that even at local USFA competitions that full uniforms are necessary, and any mention in the Coaches College manual would be grounds that such a policy does exist, even if it isn't explicit.

If a written policy DOES NOT exist, then, yes, you've got some grounds to make a case, councillor. I think if I were asking the question I would be pretty aggressive in defining what "while fencing" means, and my definition would include "taking a lesson". I think my point in telling the story was not whether or not lessons without a full uniform are against any "rules", but to ask the OP to consider sitting in a witness chair and defending himself against that type of question.

Uncomfortable, at best.

Allen Evans

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

{snip}
If a written policy DOES NOT exist, then, yes, you've got some grounds to make a case, councillor. I think if I were asking the question I would be pretty aggressive in defining what "while fencing" means, and my definition would include "taking a lesson". I think my point in telling the story was not whether or not lessons without a full uniform are against any "rules", but to ask the OP to consider sitting in a witness chair and defending himself against that type of question.

Uncomfortable, at best.

I agree that a coach in the position of injuring someone while they weren't wearing a uniform is not going to be in a good position--I was just curious because I'd never seen a formal policy, and the only thing I've seen that was official was in the Insurance FAQ, which seems to say that (while suggested) it is not a requirement of USFA sanctioned activity to wear full uniform.

--Philistine

[Allen Evans]

I'll keep looking around, but -- from some of the pms I've gotten on this -- there may be no formal policy by the USFA that a full uniform be worn while taking a lesson.

Could it be that the USFA has a written policy that masks must pass a rigorous examination and punch test, but masks themselves are not required to be worn in some situations?

I'm laughing at this already....but my fencers will still wear full equipment when getting a lesson from me

Allen

[Joe biebel]

What do you call a fencer that fences or takes a lesson without "full kit"?

"SCAR"

[needle]

Originally Posted by Joe biebel

What do you call a fencer that fences or takes a lesson without "full kit"?

Darwin award candidate?

[Hauptman]

I've worked with quite a few coaches over years, but have no coaching experience myself. I feel perfectly comfortable taking a lesson wearing only a mask for protection, and a glove for comfort (and workout clothes for those looking for something awry).

What are the possible consequences? Will the instructor hit me without intending to? I don't see that as likely. And if in that one-in-a-million chance it did happen? Would it be totally uncontrolled? No safety of a point on the blade?

Ok, one-in-a-billion chance the blade breaks, and he hits me, while I'm fleching at him... I have a far better chance of being hit by lightning, hit by a car, slipping on some ice and breaking my neck.... maybe all of those at once!

[Joe biebel]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

I've worked with quite a few coaches over years, but have no coaching experience myself. I feel perfectly comfortable taking a lesson wearing only a mask for protection, and a glove for comfort (and workout clothes for those looking for something awry).

What are the possible consequences? Will the instructor hit me without intending to? I don't see that as likely. And if in that one-in-a-million chance it did happen? Would it be totally uncontrolled? No safety of a point on the blade?

Ok, one-in-a-billion chance the blade breaks, and he hits me, while I'm fleching at him... I have a far better chance of being hit by lightning, hit by a car, slipping on some ice and breaking my neck.... maybe all of those at once!

WOW! You'll never make it to 20!

[Gav]

Originally Posted by needle

Darwin award candidate?

And yet I still walk upon this planet with fully functioning reproductive organs.

[needle]

Originally Posted by Gav

And yet I still walk upon this planet with fully functioning reproductive organs.

And that is a very disturbing thought

[D'Art]

I don't get what all the fuss is about. If a coach is worried about whether or not they'll hit their student, then make them wear a jacket. If not, let them choose. As the Brits have alluded to, we are far more relaxed about it than the Americans seem to be. Yet, I've never heard of any injuries incurred because of not wearing a jacket during a lesson, and that's over a lot of years.

PS I take lessons without wearing a jacket. Ever. The coaches I use know both my personality, and more importantly, my abilities, well enough and I have enough trust in them for it not to be an issue.

[Hauptman]

Originally Posted by Joe biebel

WOW! You'll never make it to 20!

"20" what? I'm 44 years old, and I've been fencing for over 25 years.