Manhatten Fencing gives ratings to two underage fencers in Open

[fencing freakster]

Once again, at this week's Liberty Cup, there were three underage fencers in the Open Women's Saber, two earned new ratings. You can see the results on Ask Fred.....This weekend at the Kentucky SYC, I heard about many new ratings given at youth tournaments in the bay area as well...someone actually told me the Bay Cup is allowed to give ratings at their youth tournaments....

I am fed up with both not being able to have my children in Opens while others do it and worse, as a division officer, I am constantly enforcing this rule..which is no fun to do...This rule either needs to be enforced or changed!!

Those of you on the Executive Committee who read these posts, please help this situation. It is creating strife between clubs, between families and fencers. Following the rules is not rewarded in American fencing.....

A freakin mad freakster!

[mfp]

Originally Posted by fencing freakster

I heard about many new ratings given at youth tournaments in the bay area as well...someone actually told me the Bay Cup is allowed to give ratings at their youth tournaments....

Classification changes are earned at Bay Cup youth and cadet events only when the events meet or exceed the criteria for a C1 competition. Why? Because that's the USFA rule:

Originally Posted by USFA Athlete's handbook

Division, Section and Regional Youth and Cadet competitions must meet or exceed criteria for C1 to award changes in classification.

So yes, some Bay Cup youth and cadet events do end up generating new classifications because they're strong enough events.

[Rick Thompson]

The SC Division went through some turmoil several years ago as the confusion about the 13+ years of age rule was clarified and enforced. It was inconsistently enforced for a while, but through diligent publishing on the tournament flyers (as encouraged by the div officers) and so on, it has become a well-understood criterion.

With more Youth tournaments now (still not a lot), it's less of a problem.

[FencingKitten]

As a point of interest, those underage fencers do not have ratings until those ratings are accepted by the National Office. No one ever has a new rating until it is accepted by the National Office - I just corrected ratings from a tournament 8 months ago that hadn't shown up yet because emails got typo'd or something. The earliest that someone could likely have a new classification is tomorrow, unless you sent them in tonight and the staff were somehow working freakishly late on a Sunday.

If there was an irregularity in checking birth years, as in, those fencers should not have fenced, then you need to communicate that to the National Office (info@usfencing.org) to let them know that there was a rules violation in how the tournament was run.

I tend to imagine the phrasing going like this:
"To whom it may concern,

As an attendee at the $tournament this weekend, I observed that Fencer X, Y, and Z were allowed to fence. I believe these fencers to have been born after 1994 [from memory, verify before sending], and two have been offered classifications from this event. Please consider carefully before accepting the classifications as offered.

Regards,
..."

Remember, the NO can't be everywhere. They're not big brother. They have to trust that a tournament was run correctly unless they have reason to believe otherwise, or they'd go mad fact-checking every single thing every LOC sent in. This is something that the people who have been nominated for office by the nominating committee understand *very very very well* and will be looking to fix.

My $.02.

[mfp]

Originally Posted by fencing freakster

Once again, at this week's Liberty Cup, there were three underage fencers in the Open Women's Saber

If the data on askfred for that tournament are correct, then also 20% of the entries in the Y14 event were under age for a Y14 event according to the USFA's definition.

[edew]

Originally Posted by mfp

Classification changes are earned at Bay Cup youth and cadet events only when the events meet or exceed the criteria for a C1 competition. Why? Because that's the USFA rule:



So yes, some Bay Cup youth and cadet events do end up generating new classifications because they're strong enough events.

The Bay Cup follows the rules concerning minimum and maximum age requirements for events. Of course, there may be mistakes when a parent is not knowledgeable and the host organizer gets flustered. But we do work towards making sure who can and who can't attend. We also check whether the fencer has junior national points (and thus eligible to fence in open events if 12 years of age or younger) or has cadet national points (and thus eligible to fence in junior events if 12 years of age or younger) and so on.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by mfp

If the data on askfred for that tournament are correct, then also 20% of the entries in the Y14 event were under age for a Y14 event according to the USFA's definition.

Kids can fence up.

[mfp]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Kids can fence up.

Underage kids can "fence up" in (a USFA defined) Y14 only if they're on the Y12 National Points list. None of those underage kids are.

Originally Posted by Current USFA Athlete's Handbook

Beginning August 1, 2007 and in effect for all competitions [...] Y14 Birth Years: 1993-1996

[...]

EXCEPTION TO AGE ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA (All other qualification criteria remains):

2. Youth 14 – A fencer born after 1996 can fence in Youth 14 IF the fencer is on the National Youth 12 point standings at the time of the entry deadline for that tournament.

[pokey]

Originally Posted by FencingKitten

If there was an irregularity in checking birth years, as in, those fencers should not have fenced, then you need to communicate that to the National Office (info@usfencing.org) to let them know that there was a rules violation in how the tournament was run.

So out of curiosity, what happens to the classification status of the tourney? Does the entire event get 'desanctioned', or does the offending youth fencer's results just get stricken for purposes of the event classification?

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by pokey

So out of curiosity, what happens to the classification status of the tourney? Does the entire event get 'desanctioned', or does the offending youth fencer's results just get stricken for purposes of the event classification?

What I have seen in the past is that the individual event, not the entire tournament, is unsanctioned. But truly it depends on the rules of the sanctioning body, usually the division.

[peet]

Originally Posted by fencing freakster

hmmm...interesting...I went to look at the results again to see how many underage fencers there were in all of the events and for some reason, birth year isn't showing anymore......

Are you a BC member of FRED?
If so, log in and you will see the birth years.


-p

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by mfp

Underage kids can "fence up" in (a USFA defined) Y14 only if they're on the Y12 National Points list. None of those underage kids are.

What I mean is that there is overlap in qualification for certain age categories. For example, a Y12 fencer can also be eligible for Y14 events, a Y14 fencer can also be eligible for cadet and so on. It depends on the birth year of the fencer. Hence a Y12 fencer who is 12 as of this year is also eligible to fence in Y14 (and U16 events at Sum Nats) events, or "fence up" for short.

Looking over the results from this specific event, there do seem to be some discrepancies in either FRED's info for those fencers birth year or in how the BC allowed entrants into the event.

The OP made it sound like this has been a known issue in the area? Is that the case or am I getting the wrong idea?

[peet]

Originally Posted by fencing freakster

Thanks for the info Peet!
I also noticed the fencers have already put their new "illegal" ratings into Ask Fred...
Will Ask Fred have a mechanism to verify ratings some day??
Just one more giant job for Peet.......
FF

February 2008 BoD Board Meeting

You might want to check out First Hearing Motion #4.

-p

[seltzerwater]

Originally Posted by fencing freakster

I am fed up with both not being able to have my children in Opens while others do it and worse, as a division officer, I am constantly enforcing this rule..which is no fun to do...This rule either needs to be enforced or changed!!

A freakin mad freakster!

If you are a Division officer why aren't you calling the executive directors at the USFA to report these 2 girls?

I looked them up and verified birth years and you are correct. They should not have participated in this open event. Worse, they received their ratings illegally. (D's no less!)

I don't understand why people who discover these things are not contacting the USFA offices and reporting these fencers who are violating the USFA rules. If we as the fencing community do not report these violations then the practice of underage fencers entering open events to gain ratings illegally will continue. Someone needs to be held accountable and there needs to be consequences for these fencers that violate the rules. (The USFA is very clear who can and cannot participate in Open events.)

[bunbury]

How ridiculous to think that the USFA would allow kids who can hold their own in opens to keep their earned rating...

[fencing freakster]

There are plenty of kids who can hold their own at Opens and aren't allowed to because their clubs or divisions follow the rules....are these two special???

Change the rule for everyone or enforce it...

[oso97]

Originally Posted by fencing freakster

There are plenty of kids who can hold their own at Opens and aren't allowed to because their clubs or divisions follow the rules....are these two special???

Yes. They fence in New York. Don't you know, there are rules for the elites, and there are rules for everyone else!

[peet]

Originally Posted by fencing freakster

I also noticed the fencers have already put their new "illegal" ratings into Ask Fred...

Oh, and just for clarity's sake: The fencer records in FRED likely were updated as an automatic consequence of the results being posted to FRED. (Just in case it matters to anyone whether or not the fencer(s) personally entered the "illegal" ratings into FRED)

That will change if Brad's motion to the BoD passes, and the USFA starts sharing ratings & such with FRED.

Then, FRED would no longer accept earned ratings from tournament results, nor from the fencer when they preregister, nor any other source except the USFA data dump.

-p

[edew]

Originally Posted by fencing freakster

There are plenty of kids who can hold their own at Opens and aren't allowed to because their clubs or divisions follow the rules....are these two special???

Change the rule for everyone or enforce it...

Maybe they're trying to qualify for the Special Olympics?