Blade durability

[XanderHal]

I've read this article and thread:

picking a new blade,
http://www.fencing.net/about/armory/...ing-blade.html

and noted that in the article Craig mentions that "you can't tell from looking at a blade how long it will last".

Other than being properly milled (i.e. straight groove, etc.) are there any characteristics of a blade which can make it last longer? For example, does a stiffer blade tend to last longer than a more flexible blade of the same type, or vice versa?

My situation:

I fence epee, but end up fencing foil once a week or so at my university club. I just broke my first (and only) foil, a paul france. My plan is to buy two Vniti FIE foils and rotate between them every other week to try and make them last as long as possible. I will probably order them from Craig, and was wondering if there were any specific characteristics I should mention to him to look for.

Cheers,

Xander

[Craig]

Originally Posted by XanderHal

I've read this article and thread:

picking a new blade,
http://www.fencing.net/about/armory/...ing-blade.html

and noted that in the article Craig mentions that "you can't tell from looking at a blade how long it will last".

Other than being properly milled (i.e. straight groove, etc.) are there any characteristics of a blade which can make it last longer? For example, does a stiffer blade tend to last longer than a more flexible blade of the same type, or vice versa?

My situation:

I fence epee, but end up fencing foil once a week or so at my university club. I just broke my first (and only) foil, a paul france. My plan is to buy two Vniti FIE foils and rotate between them every other week to try and make them last as long as possible. I will probably order them from Craig, and was wondering if there were any specific characteristics I should mention to him to look for.

Cheers,

Xander

Vnitis are tanks as far as durability goes.

One of the things that most impacts a blade's durability is the ability of the fencer using the blade to fence in the proper distance. I've seen fencers with bad distance snap lots of blades while the fencer with good distance has the same blade last months.

Craig

[XanderHal]

Originally Posted by Craig

One of the things that most impacts a blade's durability is the ability of the fencer using the blade to fence in the proper distance
Craig

Good point. I'm comfortable with my ability now to warrant spending the money of the FIE blades. I'm pretty easy on blades, although my early fencing with the old paul blade probably contributed to it's downfall.

I'm just wondering if there are any blade characteristics that make them more robust, or if it is just all relative based on how I fence. I realize sometimes blades would last a lot longer if they didn't get bad kinks.

[remise]

I'd like to add that CARE of the blade will also affect its lifespan. Many fencers from my old club would store their blades in with their damp fencing clothes which promoted rusting. These fencers were the ones that usually had broken blades, because when a blade rusts, it is weakened.

[seven6ty]

I think rotating blades every week would be a lot of excessive work, and they should both end up giving you the same amount of bouting time before breakage.

It's probably a lot easier just to keep on on stand by, in a nice, neat and dry place, and then simply throw it on when your other one breaks.

[CvilleFencer]

If you fence only once a week, have good distance and take reasonable care of your foils, it would not surprise me if those two Vniti blades lasted past your collegiate fencing career. The are that durable. I am a brute on foil blades in general, use them for giving lessons as well as fencing. I also don't take any special care with my foils. I have Vniti foils that have stood up to this for years. I think the one I am currently using is an 03...

[XanderHal]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

I think rotating blades every week would be a lot of excessive work.

Apologies for not being clearer. I meant I would build two fully assembled foils, and just alternate which ones I am using every week. It would probably be better to have two anyways just in case I ever decided to compete in foil.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I tend to be pretty anal about taking care of my gear, so I have a feeling the Vniti's will last me a long time if that is the way I decide to go.

[lanier]

I asked Earl Shapiro, who keeps meticulous records on his blades to weigh in:

"Interesting question. I could run some statistics on
my data set. Not only do I have the longevity data on
~28 blades, I also have flexibility measurements on
most of them. I should be able to see if there is any
correlation.

Personally, I would not select a blade simply on how
long it lasts. A blade should be fitted to a fencers
style and arm strength.

I will see what I can come up with.
Earl"

[XanderHal]

Originally Posted by lanier

Personally, I would not select a blade simply on how
long it lasts. A blade should be fitted to a fencers
style and arm strength.
Earl"

Agreed. Because I've been competing in epee, with my epee's durability are not as important to me as good blade characteristics (although I'm still learning what I like and dislike). Overall I've heard good things about the vniti foils and I think they would suit my fencing style, although maybe I will find I dislike them (although I doubt it, it would be an expensive proposition).

It would be silly to pick a more durable blade than a more comfortable blade I suppose, but when I'm not competing in the weapon I can place more stock on the durability factor I think.

I would definitely be interested to see the statistics if anyone had time to look into it. Thanks for the post.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by XanderHal

end up fencing foil once a week or so at my university club.

...........

Originally Posted by XanderHal

I just broke my first (and only) foil, a paul france.

funny how everything seems to work out for the best in life eh?? the universe is trying to tell you something...

[XanderHal]

Originally Posted by glowstix

:the universe is trying to tell you something...

Come fence more often at Priori and I promise I'll never pick up a foil again

[quantumfoil]

Bill Lanier has asked me to insert some actual data (what a concept!) into this discussion. I will summarize the results of a statistical analysis of foil blade durability in the next paragraph, and then provide the details.

The statistical analysis is based on data from 20 Blaise Freres (BF) foil blades, each used approximately 100 hours per year. The BF blades lasted an average of 9.5 months, or a little less than 0.1 month for every hour of ‘strip time’. There is a preliminary indication of a strong correlation between blade stiffness and durability. Details of these analyses are given below.

My recommendations for buying a long-lasting blade are:

1) Start with a forge with a reputation for producing long-lasting blades. Two forges that immediately come to mind are Vniti and Leon Paul.

2) Reject any blade with structural defects (see comments by other posters)

3) From these blades, select the stiffest blade that you can comfortably manipulate.

4) From the selected blades, pick the lightest blades available (currently, there is no data to back this recommendation, but it does make sense.).


DETAILS CONCERNING DATABASE AND THE ANALYSES
First a few comments on my database and equipment usage. I fence exclusively foil and have been fencing (as a veteran) since 1996 (plus about 8 years in 1950’s and 1960’s). I have kept maintenance logs on my foils and bodycords since ~1999. Because I was still developing the format for the maintenance logs during the first few years, the early data is not always consistent with later records. I also began to quantitatively measure blade flexibility in 2001 (If anyone is interested in rapid quantitative measurements of flexibility, I can post some information on that topic). I fence three times a week plus tournaments (lots of tournaments). I maintain six (6) foils including three (3) competition foils and three (3) practice foils. There is no difference between the competition foils and the practice foils other than the fact that the practice foils get more usage and the competition foils get more maintenance. I cycle through my foils so that I use one practice foil each week and run maintenance on that foil at the end of the week. I estimate that each of my practice foils ‘clock’ about 100 hours of ‘strip-time’ per year. My competition blades ‘clock’ about 20 hours of ‘strip-time’ per year.

The database consists of records on 33 blades. Removing the competition blades, blades currently in use, unmounted blades, and blades passed on to other fencers, leaves complete records for 20 blades. All blades are Blaise Freres (BF) and include 9 BF whites, 5 BF golds, and 6 BF blues.

Statistical analysis (Shapiro-Wilk test) indicates that the durability data appears to be normally distributed (probability=0.439) with homogeneous variances among white, gold, and blue blades (probability=0.208). Analysis of variance shows that there is no significant difference in durability between the BF white, BF gold, or BF blue blades (probability of significant difference=0.195, n=20). The average (mean) longevity of a BF blade, given my level of usage and style of fencing, is 9.5 months with a range 4.4 to 18.5 months.

The data on flexibility is more ambiguous. I have complete data for 18 BF blades. Using all of the data, there is no significant correlation between flexibility and durability (Pearson correlation coefficient r=0.116, p=0.645). However, I am suspicious of the early values in the data set. When early data is removed, the correlation between flexibility and durability becomes highly significant (r=0.787, p=0.007). However, adjusting data to produce reasonable results is bad statistical practice. Although I suspect that the significant correlation is probably correct, additional data is required to validate this hypothesis.

I have not measured blade weight, but I am considering adding that to my list of measurements. Blade weight will have an effect on the speed with which you can manipulate the blade, and on the wear and tear on your elbow. As an initial working hypothesis, blade weight should show positive correlation with stiffness and durability (although, light but stiff blades are out there).

The bottom line: Blaise Freres blades should last approximately 9.5 months if you are using the blade hard for approximate 100 hours per year (figure 0.1 month longevity for every hour of ‘strip-time’). There may be a strong correlation between flexibility and durability, with stiffer blades lasting significantly longer. However, additional data is needed to test the flexibility versus durability hypothesis.

[DangerMouse]

Great to see some actual analysis (albeit with a small n). The one issue I see is the equation of 0.1 month longevity per hour strip-time. This implies more use yields longer lived blades. I think you would be better off claiming you can increase blade longevity by 0.1 month for every hour reduction in strip-time.

[quantumfoil]

Originally Posted by DangerMouse

Great to see some actual analysis (albeit with a small n). The one issue I see is the equation of 0.1 month longevity per hour strip-time. This implies more use yields longer lived blades. I think you would be better off claiming you can increase blade longevity by 0.1 month for every hour reduction in strip-time.

You are, of course, correct regarding the statement relating blade longevity to 'strip-time'. Longevity obviously is a inversely related to use. If I had laid it out as an actual equation, I would have seen the problem.

In regard to the small 'n', I guess I need to break more blades. I will try harder.

quantumfoil