Two coaches- helpful or not so good?

[Welted 24/7]

Lately, I've found myself in a situation where I'd be able to take lessons from two different coaches, and before I start, I thought I'd go straight to the source. As a coach, how do you feel about your students doing lessons with a separate coach from yourself? Not talking about in terms of loyalties, I mean as far as their development as a fencer. Do you feel like another perspective outside of your own would be useful to your fencer, or just that it might contradict what you're currently teaching?

[Anotherfencingmom]

my son gets instruction from three different coaches. He gets group instructions from one coach and private lessons from two different coaches. One coach is a righty and the other coach is a lefty. My son is a lefty and he likes his lefty coach, better.

[RITFencing]

This VASTLY depends on the coaches themselves, and on the level of the student.

If you have two coaches who are willing to collaborate, or who teach very similar styles, this can be quite nice. If, however, the two are teaching basically the opposite way of fencing, this can be highly detrimental. I would make sure at the least that they will not be telling you diametrically opposite things unless you are a very experienced fencer and able to process them differently.

For instance, if one coach teaches all blade actions as two hand tempos, grab and then hit (german style) and the other one teaches all blade actions as one tempo, grab and hit at the same time (french style) then it can be very confusing for a fencer. Neither school of thought is wrong, both have their strengths and weaknesses, but unless a fencer is sufficiently able to keep the two separate in their game, they will be in for trouble.

If, however, the coaches teach things that are similar or perhaps complimentary, or if the fencer is just skilled enough to know when to do what one coach says and when to do what the other says without getting confused, it can definitely work out. If the coaches are willing to collaborate and work together on a fencer's development, this not only increases the good things and partially eliminates the bad but allows the overall progression of skills in the lessons to happen at a much greater pace.

In closing, I wouldn't recommend this for a beginning fencer unless the two coaches are either very similar or working together, but for an intermediate to advanced one it can work out ok.

[Durando]

There's no way to answer this question other than to say "It depends." I'd echo the advice given earlier that, for a beginner, the two coaches should be making some sort of coordinated effort. Remember that you can also learn by watching lessons--watch that other coach who interests you.

Perhaps my personal experience will somehow help.There was a time in Chicago when I was working with both Tim Glass and Boris Lukomsky. I must say it was difficult, the basic technique that both expected was so different. The situation was very, very interesting and rich. The differences highlighted each other and made me choose techniques. Years later, I can say I still wholeheartedly admire the way Boris teaches sentiment de fer and I still employ Tim's was of taking the blade.

Whether these dispositions show in my fencing today is anyone's guess. It was pleasant from the standpoint of learning a lot about the subject of fencing and frustrating from the standpoint of having to remember which technique went with which coach, so that I didn't end up making them repeat themselves.

[RITFencing]

This is kind of off topic but I feel it bears mention...

For fencers, it can be difficult, maybe good, maybe bad, but for coaches, learning from multiple other coaches, at least in my experience, works much better.

I find it much easier to pick and choose what I like and incorporate it into my lessons, or find ways of teaching one particular style of fencing that might work well for a particular student than to pick and choose things I practice in lessons and use them in my own game.

I'd go so far as to say that learning from different high level coaches, even if I had only a brief exposure to a few of them, has had a hugely positive impact on my own coaching, and I am very glad for the different perspectives that have been offered.

[dcmdale]

I agree with much of the above. The first time my daughter had two coaches, it worked out poorly because each had fairly strong opinions about certain style elements and would try to "fix" what the other coach was teaching. On occasion, when when one was strip coaching, they would get into verbal arguments. In our current situation (different club), we aren't running into that conflict and I think that we are getting substantial benefit from both coaches.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

Lately, I've found myself in a situation where I'd be able to take lessons from two different coaches, and before I start, I thought I'd go straight to the source. As a coach, how do you feel about your students doing lessons with a separate coach from yourself? Not talking about in terms of loyalties, I mean as far as their development as a fencer. Do you feel like another perspective outside of your own would be useful to your fencer, or just that it might contradict what you're currently teaching?

From the question, I assume that you're not just talking about taking lessons from two coaches at the same club. (In that case, it's much easier for them to coordinate what they're doing.) It sounds like you're talking about taking lessons with a coach from a different club.

I won't discuss whether it's a good or bad idea. You already have good replies on that front. I'll just mention that you should probably tell both coaches what you're doing. See, for example, the discussion about this topic on Allen's blog.

[Allen Evans]

At the end of my fencing career, I had two coaches. One of my coaches taught me pure French technique and no tactics. The other coach simply assumed that there wasn't a technical action I couldn't do, and taught me pure tactics. I was -- in addition -- some thirty years old at the time, had a long history in fencing, and was capable of integrating the lessons from both coaches. I thought the relationship worked out very well, though I eventually dropped the coach working me in technique.

Several years later, I took on a student (at the request of her parents) who was being coached by an older coach who had been a very successful fencer in college, but had not modified his game to the new realities of saber (he was still grumpy about the abolishment of the fleche, for instance). As you might imagine, my teaching this student was often handicapped with a lot of compromises on my part. I always thought that the student could have performed better with just one of us teaching her.

You know your own situation. Sometimes two coaches can work well together, and sometimes they can't. Sometimes the student can successfully integrate two different perspectives on their fencing, and sometimes they just end up trying to do two mutually exclusive things at once, and they fall on their face.

Allen Evans

[InFerrumVeritas]

I have two coaches who work together and run my primary club. I also fence at annother club, where the owner/coach there will work with me on problems he notices me having during my open fencing there. They all have very different styles, but are all also good friends and are very good at reconizing a skill that I have developed with one of the other coaches and expanding upon it.

I guess my point is: It depends on the coaches. If their styles are similar, or they are willing to work along with the things you learn with the other coach, it can be really nice to see different perspectives and have a larger learning base to develop your own style from.

Of course, it can be an unmitigated disaster as well. My best advice is to talk to the coaches and get their perspectives.

[rdg]

I had 2 coaches for a while.

Pro:
The two coaches emphasized different actions. One was big on fleching and perfecting that single action; the other very interested in German engagements, 2nd intentions, etc. This gave me more tools in my bag of tricks in a pretty quick period of time.

Con:
A simple example is that the one insisted that my thumb be at 12:00, the other at 2:00. So both coaches corrected my hand position when I was not using their style.

Summary:
As has been said, if you are in a place where you can synthesize two methods into your one game, it will work. But for new fencers still trying to master the basics, it seems to me like it would be a bit confusing.

Finally:
Currently I have one coach only. Given the money, I would take 2 lessons from the same coach if that were possible rather than 1 lesson each from 2 coaches. But then I have a really cool coach, and I am improving.

Sam

Sam

[Adler]

Originally Posted by rdg

the other very interested in German engagements

What like Kursk and Stalingrad?

[rdg]

Originally Posted by Adler

What like Kursk and Stalingrad?

No, no my bad ... like blondes with wide hips.

Sam