Blade's Screwless tip: First Impressions

[Methix]

So I picked up a couple screwless epee tips from Blade, I think they might made by X-fencing. Not really sure since they don't list the manufacturer, but on the front page they are selling X-fencing blades with these tips.

http://www.blade-fencing.com/store/item.htm?itemid=629

I haven't yet fenced with it (just put it on today), but here's my first impressions. I've also only wired the one so far. I have another one which I'll do later, so maybe that one will help me decide if I like them or not. That's why this is a first impressions post. I'm curious if anyone else has tried these yet and your thoughts.

Some concerns I have so far:

-Does not use a standard epee wire. Also, not sure where to buy more wires, Blade doesn't seem to sell them alone (I haven't looked through the other vendor sites for them yet). Instead of two contacts side-by-side that get bridged by the contact spring, it has a single post in the center and a ring around it for the two connections. The weight spring sits on the outer ring and bridges that connector to the tip. The tip then has a small pin in the center that meets the post on the wire when the tip is depressed.
-The wire did not seat into the barrel smoothly. I had to really coax it to get it set in the barrel.
-Also seems to use a proprietary spring, that's ever so slightly narrower than standard weight springs. This spring was also really soft, had to stretch it quite a bit to pass a weight test reliably.
-The wires had a thin coating on them (under the cloth sheathing) that had to be scraped off to actually make connection with the socket. Took me a bit to figure out why I wasn't getting any connectivity at first.
-It is occasionally grounding the B connector to the C. No clue why. The way I wired it, B is the center pin.

Other thoughts:

-It came with a tiny copper washer that I can't figure out what it's for *shrug*.
-It has a screw on the end which looks like it is for an external shim adjust, but it doesn't seem to do much. I can turn it all the way in or all the way out and it passes shims no problem. Also, just the design of it doesn't quite seem like that's what it is for. It's hard to explain in text, but it doesn't seem to actually affect the depth of the contact tab (not a contact spring, which is due to the special wire). It's like it controls the pressure to push in this little tab, although the weapon registers a touch as soon as it makes contact.

[brtech]

Dan said it's Russian, don't remember if he said what the specific vendor was. It's apparently an old design, and he was delighted to see it because he was in need of some parts.

Indeed the screw does not set the lightning stroke. I thought it did too when I first saw it and told the owner it would be illegal because of that. I was wrong, it is legal for U.S. use. As far as I can tell, it's not officially homulagated, and therefore is not legal for World Cup, where a recent rule change said there had to be two screws or it has to be specially approved.

The wire coating is undoubtedly varnish, which is what any German wire has under the silk. Scrape with sandpaper or emery cloth. That one confuses lots of people, don't be too embarrassed. You usually can't tell by looking that it's varnished, but varnish is a good insulator, which is why they use it.

Look at the tip. Is there one or more washers between the tip and the center post? I think it's a Schermasport screwless tip that uses a post and has washers to set the lightning strike.

Shorting a wire to C is an insulation break somewhere. Usually, it's the wire. With this point, it could have been the weight spring that is touching the barrel. In a normal epee point, the spring normally is grounded to C, so it's not a problem. In this point, the weight spring connects to A or B. But since you said B was the center pin, it has to be the post connecting to the outer metal or the barrel and that is less likely.

[DangerMouse]

I haven't used these, but it looks like a copy of the italian designs.

The screw on the tip probably is to adjust the length of the piston. Here's how it would work:
If you remove the screw, there should be a brass piston, a spring, and some tiny little washers inside. The spring absorbs the shock as the tip is depressed. You adjust the lenght of the piston by adding or removing washers.

EDIT: BR beat me to it, but it's not a schermasport screwless. I have a number of the schermasport tips and they do not have a screw in the tip, although the design is similar.

[erik_blank]

how do these points lock the threads so they don't come unscrewed during use? should people think about using teflon tape to secure them (and make it easier to un-screw them when necessary)?

[brtech]

How do you adjust shims on a schermasport? Doesn't it use washers on the post? Often you see advice that you cut the post off, but I think the right way is to add or remove washers.

It doesn't have the piston, I agree.

[Methix]

Ahh ok, that explains the washers.

Sorry, I didn't clarify the B-C short very clearly. It's occasionally when the tip is depressed that it shorts. It's definitely not the wiring because it only happens when the tip is fully depressed. At first I thought it might be the weight spring touching the inside of the barrel, but it happens even without the spring in it.

Interesting to know that this design has been around a while. Where can I get replacement wires when the ones that came with it break?

Thanks for the clarification on the varnish as well. I've always been cheap and used french wires so I just unwind the fabric sheathing and attach them to the socket. Never had a problem, so I was surprised to see the varnish coating on these wires.

[Craig]

I've got a whole bunch of those in stock right now. I've had a couple of testers for the screwless foil points but not the epee ones yet.

So, blade went to market first, but we have the same product (prob. from same factory) in testing.

Craig

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by Craig

I've got a whole bunch of those in stock right now. I've had a couple of testers for the screwless foil points but not the epee ones yet.

So, blade went to market first, but we have the same product (prob. from same factory) in testing.

Craig

They look the same. It looks like you can only buy the screwless stuff from Blade on an already wired blade.

[Methix]

Originally Posted by Craig

I've got a whole bunch of those in stock right now. I've had a couple of testers for the screwless foil points but not the epee ones yet.

So, blade went to market first, but we have the same product (prob. from same factory) in testing.

Craig

Good to know, are you planning on selling the wires seperately?

Blade is selling the complete point with a wire, but they don't seem to be selling *just* a wire.

[Purple Fencer]

These are indeed a copy of teh Italian design (which has been out for SEVERAL decades)

The wire -- like the italian design -- cannot be crossed with the mroe standard german/French design.

The little washer running around the cup is soldered to one of the wires...and the spring sits against it, so the spring is actually part the circuit, unlike the F/G design.

The cenbter post of teh wire is the other wire, s when the tip is depressed, it only needs to have one point of contact rather then 2....in effect, the circuit is half closed at rest.

The TEEEENYYY TIIIIIIINNY washers are what adjusts the travel. If you un screw the screw in teh face of the tip and tip it over, several things will fall out...the screw itself, a contact spring, a metal post, and possibly those washers.

The post has a little flange on it...that sits on teh top of the interior insulator....putting the tiny washers underneath the post adjusts how for out the bottom of teh tip the post projects....i.e. shortening the travel.

The contact spring serves one purpose...a shock absorber...it is NOT a part of the circuit (except for grounding against a strip or opponent's guard). The screw in the face is there simply to hold the assembly together....so cranking it deeper into the face does nothing re travel.

Unfortunately, some people were insisting that it WAS an outside adjustment, so to shut them up Schermasport started buffing out teh screw slot...which means the adjustment is done by filing the post on the point or wire...a ROYAL pain in the ass...when someone like Matt Porter hates working on them, it's bad!

There WAS an allstar tip that DID have a means t adjust the travel from the outside (actually, it was a simple set screw)...THAt tip IS illegal....but that's NOT the one being discussed here.

[bigdawg2121]

So are the foil tips any better than the Estoc screwless ones? Those suck.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

So are the foil tips any better than the Estoc screwless ones? Those suck.

Hard to say...I haven't seen one in action enough to make an opinion....others here may, however.

[DangerMouse]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Unfortunately, some people were insisting that it WAS an outside adjustment, so to shut them up Schermasport started buffing out teh screw slot...which means the adjustment is done by filing the post on the point or wire...a ROYAL pain in the ass...when someone like Matt Porter hates working on them, it's bad!

So does that mean that I can use a small cutting wheel to add a screwdriver slot to my Schermasport tips and then be able to adjust them with washers?

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

So are the foil tips any better than the Estoc screwless ones? Those suck.

I've been using them for about four months, and I like them a lot.

I wired up three foils, but I've used one of those for 90% of my fencing in the past four months, and it hasn't had any phantom white lights, barrel dings, or travel problems.

I talked to a nationally certified armorer (I realize there are several on this board, but I'm just saying it wasn't Joe Club Armorer) and he said that it was the Schermasport design with a couple differences.

He said the rubber O-ring in the Schermasport and the brass flange are really the only points of failure, and that the steel flange in the copy point looked much more solid, but still to watch the rubber O-ring. He said he expected it to be better than the Estoc, even though the Schermasports had some problems too.

A couple days ago, I decided to really test his evaluation of the point, and I completely destroyed it. I hit it with the flat face of a hammer twice to no effect. I then hit the point pretty hard with the peen side (deep dent in the barrel) and destroyed the travel. It was hard to take out the tip, but I was able to screw in a new tip, and the point worked like new.

Next, I tried to make the flange fail with a pair of lineman's pliers. I pulled and twisted as hard as I could with one hand. I made a little progress in lengthening the travel by pulling it out, but it still worked fine. I'm not the strongest guy in the world, but I was unable to pull it further with one hand. I had to brace the foil between something and pull with both hands as hard as I could. Then the tip came out. So, I figure the flange isn't a problem.

Furthermore, I've found I'm able to flick more easily with these points than with the points I normally use. I'm not talking about one or two more lucky touches per tournament. I'm saying it has radically changed the way I fence because I'm so confident with my point control. (I've heard testimony in conflict with mine. Your mileage may vary.)

Basically, I highly recommend them.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by DangerMouse

So does that mean that I can use a small cutting wheel to add a screwdriver slot to my Schermasport tips and then be able to adjust them with washers?

If you can do it right, I see no reason why not....but there's no saying what's inside the tip in the first place....that may not have included the washers...and then you'll have to convince any director that sees the tip that it's NT an outside adjustment...

[bigdawg2121]

Hmm, I found the exact opposite to be true of the Estoc. I may have to try these when they come out.

[DangerMouse]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

If you can do it right, I see no reason why not....but there's no saying what's inside the tip in the first place....that may not have included the washers...and then you'll have to convince any director that sees the tip that it's NT an outside adjustment...

I've got a couple tips that are pretty well trashed. I'll give it a try on one of them

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

Hmm, I found the exact opposite to be true of the Estoc. I may have to try these when they come out.

I have 2 problems with the Estoc design:

1) There's often not enough length on the post to screw the spring on enough to pass shim....I have to cut them a touch shorter frequently.

2) because you can spin the tip, I've been seeing a lot of contact springs getting screwed up the post, bottoming out, then balling up like an overwound rubber band.

[bigdawg2121]

I was referring to the foil points which worked more or less not at all for me.