rigging your point

[TTTT]

recently bought kolobkov[sorry if wrong spelling] pro blade [epee] didnt realy check tip [ passed ]tests but when fencing would not register half of my hits -going insane - was at comp].Checking afterwards pressure spring passed test very well - could actually lift my daughter .Replaced with older spring = legal + works fine - but got me thinking do people "set " their tips to be just legal? - as you can probably guess am no armourer .[tried search but am crap at that aswell]

............and discuss

[noodle]

yeap.

[little_old_me]

I do, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[oiuyt]

Some people do, most don't.

Recognize, if doing so, that a) most hits are going to be WAY over the legal minimum so you're not helping yourself any on those actions, b) there's a fairly wide range in the specs for the weights.

Looking at the second point. The rules specify that the epee weight be 750g +/- 3g. So an in-spec weight could be anywhere 747-753g. If yours is at the low end and the test weight on strip is at the high end you really don't want to have cut things close.

But it gets much worse. These are basically just a hunk of metal. Shouldn't be hard to manufacture them consistently and within the given, fairly wide, tolerances. But that doesn't happen much of the time. You could easily end up with the "official" weight in a tournament tipping the scales at 770g. And if that's the weight that shows up on your strip you've got the problem, even if every other weight in the building would show your weapon in compliance.

Going the other direction, the weight you personally use to set your weapon might be light by that much as well. Now you're not even close to passing with the good weights.

I have a former teammate who (at least at the time) liked to set his epees to pass with his weight and fail with his weight plus a quarter. He would spend huge quantities of time getting things juuuuust right. This is, in my opinion, foolish. But there are people out there who do this.

-B

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Looking at the second point. The rules specify that the epee weight be 750g +/- 3g. So an in-spec weight could be anywhere 747-753g. If yours is at the low end and the test weight on strip is at the high end you really don't want to have cut things close.

The average epee hit is 3 kilos...so setting your point just a hair above 750 is a waste of time and effort.

But it gets much worse. These are basically just a hunk of metal. Shouldn't be hard to manufacture them consistently and within the given, fairly wide, tolerances. But that doesn't happen much of the time. You could easily end up with the "official" weight in a tournament tipping the scales at 770g. And if that's the weight that shows up on your strip you've got the problem, even if every other weight in the building would show your weapon in compliance.

Yep...happens all the time...my test weight is 756...3 grams over teh allowance, so if it passes my table, it should pass teh strip....same for my shims, which are thinner than the allowance. But i still see gear failing at the strip because the test gear THERE is out of spec.

[AdamH]

Some people will set it up -just- right, but as oiyut says, it can be a close shave.

I've heard of someone who would set his spring to be legal with weight + few staples cellotaped!

The most recent comp had weight testing for every poule bout, plenty people caught out that day. There were fencers with their tip set just so. Forgot to check they had both grub screws and ate the card and switch weapon anyway.

As the spring warms up through use it will become more pliable, so through the course of a day of fencing will naturally become softer. Mine was fine at the start of the day but after two rounds of poules it then started going soft through the DEs. Very good habit to weight test your weapon at the end of each bout.

If you have a legal weapon that is getting a bit close it doesn't hurt to leave it on cold concrete next to a draughty door after you've weight-tested it.

Then there are people who will cut their springs and use depending on if they think they can get away with it. Seriously doubt this would be worth the hassle in the same manner as 'forgetting' to wear a plastron. Too much distraction from the actual fencing and these folks always get caught out eventually. Have seen a few people who have reputations that are poo. Always worth asking to have their weapon tested and later ask for the ref to check their plastron if the right opportunity arrives later

[DangerMouse]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Some people do, most don't.

Recognize, if doing so, that a) most hits are going to be WAY over the legal minimum so you're not helping yourself any on those actions, b) there's a fairly wide range in the specs for the weights.

Everyone seems to focus on the weight spring. The contact spring is the one that really matters. The biggest factor in a light hit not registering is the crap that builds up in the tip that adds friction. The less the tip has to move, the more likely it will go off. I notice a significant difference between an adequately set tip (goes off with .3mm - .4mm shim) versus an inadequately set one (does not go off with .3mm shim).

[SJCFU#2]

You could try tweaking your pressure spring, but as Purple Fencer has already said, this rarely makes that much of a difference.

If you're missing touches then I would suggest taking a good, hard look at the travel. If you practically have to press the tip all the way down hard against the barrel before it to registers a touch then the problem may be that the contact spring isn't consistently shorting the contacts at the base of the barrel together. The rules call for a minimum travel of 1 mm (m.19.4), which is tested by first ensuring that a 1.5 mm shim can fit between the tip and the barrel and then making sure that no touches register with a 0.5 mm shim inserted between the tip and the barrel. This means that the contact spring must be set to short those two contacts together somewhere in that last 0.5 mm. Bearing in mind that shims also have tolerances associated with them (+/- 0.5 mm) and you should probably set your tip so that it registers a touch somewhere between 0.2 and 0.4 mm (if you really want to be precise then you can check it with an automotive feeler gage).

[Purple Fencer]

Iffy firing of teh light could also be the contacts in teh wire not being entirely level...makes for very spotty contact with the contact spring.

To solve this, simply get a small punch with a flat end, place into the barrel and against the contacts, then give it a few GENTLE taps with a hammer...levels the contacts out rather nicely...and makes the contact much more reliable. it also can correct seemingly high resistance if the light DOES fire because there's more contact.

[brtech]

Note that in USFA tournaments (NACs, JOs and SNs), the weights and shims are tested periodically. They should be within spec, and we check it every once in a while. Many of us have heavy weights, and those that don't can tape a couple pennies on our legal weights. I do it by feel. If it takes next to no pressure to get the weight to cause the tip to register, it's on the edge and maybe you should get a new spring. If you have to shove the weight down, then maybe your spring is a tad too hefty.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by brtech

Note that in national USFA tournaments (NACs, JOs and SNs),

Corrected that for you.

Locally things can be a bit less regulated.

-B

[HDG]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Locally things can be a bit less regulated.

Or screamingly unregulated...

[brtech]

In our division, weights used in division tournaments are checked on a scale once a year. If we get new weights, they are checked upon arrival.

[Fechter1]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I have a former teammate who (at least at the time) liked to set his epees to pass with his weight and fail with his weight plus a quarter. He would spend huge quantities of time getting things juuuuust right.

Wouldn't be talking about me there, would ya?

Although I didn't quite cut them that close with the weights... ('Twas 4 quarters) Basically, I would adjust the contact spring to just pass shims, and the just make sure the pressure spring was up to the task.

And yes, it did take a considerable amount of time to keep all my blades maintained thus. These days my tolerances are a bit looser, so the time required is somewhat more tolerable.

Still, a well-tuned point can get me touches that might would otherwise not have registered.

$.02

[gatsby]

Originally Posted by DangerMouse

Everyone seems to focus on the weight spring. The contact spring is the one that really matters. The biggest factor in a light hit not registering is the crap that builds up in the tip that adds friction. The less the tip has to move, the more likely it will go off. I notice a significant difference between an adequately set tip (goes off with .3mm - .4mm shim) versus an inadequately set one (does not go off with .3mm shim).

totally agree with this statement
having to press an epee tip all the way down to the barrel to get the light to go off can lose you hand touches.

i don't play with my pressure springs unless theyre VERY VERY stiff

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Fechter1

Wouldn't be talking about me there, would ya?

Although I didn't quite cut them that close with the weights... ('Twas 4 quarters)

Stop ruining my stories with facts. Just be glad I didn't claim it was a dime!

And, to be fair, after all of the time spent working on them, you ALWAYS had reliable weapons. I've seen other people spend nearly as much time and end up with junk.

-B

[Fechter1]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Stop ruining my stories with facts. Just be glad I didn't claim it was a dime!

And, to be fair, after all of the time spent working on them, you ALWAYS had reliable weapons. I've seen other people spend nearly as much time and end up with junk.

-B

Great, now my head is swelling to accommodate my ego... See what you've done now? <walks away grumbling>

I did have it down to a science though... I could disassemble a point, clean it, adjust it to the proper tolerances, and reassemble (and of course verify by testing) within 2 minutes... Suffice to say, fencing was my life back then.

[Alex_Paul]

The same thing about weights on strip being wrong goes for shims too... Unfortunately the problem is really bad with some of the shims the USFA have.

They wear with time and can show a legal tip to be illegal for travel.

I have set tips for people at the Nationals using a new LP shim only for it to be repeatedly failed on strip despite the head tec agreeing it was OK. I have had some REALLY angry customers because of this.

[brtech]

The shims are supposed to be checked with a micrometer. I don't know how often, but I will find out. Swordmasters keeps the weights and shims and has the tools to check them. In every NAC, at least one armorer has a micrometer. If this happens again, ask to have the shim tested by the armory staff. They will do it. We love a challenge like that if it's really true.

Of course, your shim could be at one end of the allowed range and the director's shim can be at the other end of the range and result in a weapon passing with your shim not passing with his. You have to have a shim at or below the thin limit to guarantee that if it passes on your shim it will pass on the strip with a legal shim. Some armorers carry such a shim.

NB, we've seen plenty of new shims that were not in spec. Can't say I've ever seen a new LP shim that was out of spec.

[SJCFU#2]

From what I've seen Leon Paul shims tend to be among the most accurate out there - don't think I've ever seen a new LP shim that wasn't within +/- 0.01 mm (about 1/5th of the allowable tolerance).

Unfortunately not all manufacturers are as precise - I have one set of shims from another major European supplier that barely met the minimum when it was brand new (and that was before they started outsourcing much of their production to China). As such while I use it all the time for setting tips I would would never let a referee use it for testing.