Coaching Fairly

[Nail Biter]

I know we are human and favoring someone is unavoidable. But do you think coaches favor one athlete over another and treat them differently? I see that on the strips and off the strips. It's unfair and it can damage the "unfavored" fencer's self confidence as well as his self esteem.

FYI - I'm not involved in any of those situations but I see it often.

[noodle]

I know we are human and favoring someone is unavoidable. But do you think coaches favor one athlete over another and treat them differently? I see that on the strips and off the strips. It's unfair and it can damage the "unfavored" fencer's self confidence as well as his self esteem.

FYI - I'm not involved in any of those situations but I see it often.

yes, it happens.
but "why" is a better question to ask.

as an example, perhaps one fencer pays them more/better/etc.. if i were a coach and 50% of my income came from a single fencer, i'd give more attention to that student. or, perhaps the coach is at the event because fencer X paid them to be there, but fencer Y, also a student of this coach, didn't. Y would primarily get ignored for X because it would be unfair for X to pay for something that Y gets for free.

[TBean]

Sure it happens for a lot of reasons. It might also be that having coached these folks for awhile what one athlete needs on the stip is different from another. Also, where are we in a tournament and what level is the athlete. An experienced athlete might be expected to get through pools and thier first DE without much time from thier coach but then gets much more serious attention as they move through the table. Coach might also have to make a choice, who do I help, the inexperienced fencer who needs a lot of coaching but is probably going to loose this round or the more experienced fencer, likely to go farther but is struggling now for whatever reason. Both need assistance and there is still only one coach.

Lots of things play into the dynamic of a coach's relationship with thier athletes - I do not think that any coach would ever want to intentionally do something to hurt thier students - that just seems counter productive to everything they are trying to achieve. They are, however, still human and it happens.

[tbryan]

When I first saw this thread, I misread the title. I thought that the thread was about the "Coaching Fairy."

[tchwojko]

It's unfair and it can damage the "unfavored" fencer's self confidence as well as his self esteem.

What exactly is unfair? As I have to explain to my kids a lot, "fair" does not mean "exactly equal treatment". My three kids have different interests, temperaments, needs and wants. They all get treated very differently, have different privileges, and get different attention at different times.

Without knowing a whole heck of a lot about the context and history of the relationships of coach/student, then it's pretty well impossible to tell whether the situation is "fair" or not.

[TBean]

When I first saw this thread, I misread the title. I thought that the thread was about the "Coaching Fairy."

Now I am envisioning my coach in the doberman jacket, with two swords, a pink tulle tutu and wings.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

But do you think coaches favor one athlete over another and treat them differently?

Ten foot pole...where's my ten foot pole?

Sure they do. Sometimes they should. Athlete A comes in to practice regularly, works hard and diligently, and strives to do their best. Athlete B only comes a couple times a week, arrives late, leaves early, and spends half of practice chatting with their friends. Which one should get the preponderance of the coach's limited time?

However; early on, during our time spent in various gymnastics gyms, we learned several valuable lessons:

1. Eastern European coaches often do not like to be questioned or contradicted. Do so and your child's stock will plummet, as will their share of attention. This problem increases in direct proportion to the stature of the coach relative to other coaches at the club.
2. A big wallet means big attention from the club owner. Big attention from the club owner usually results in big attention from the coach.
3. A club run by family members for family members is often a recipe for favoritism. Especially at the club we attended that was built for the three daughters of the owners! It seems self-evident, but you always try to talk yourself into believing otherwise.
4. A non-USA coach brought over on a work permit will frequently have very conflicted loyalties between the needs of their students and the demands of the club owners who sponsored them.

By the way, this may or may not apply to other coaches outside gymnastics. Extrapolate of your own volition.

[jjefferies]

I know we are human and favoring someone is unavoidable. But do you think coaches favor one athlete over another and treat them differently? I see that on the strips and off the strips. It's unfair and it can damage the "unfavored" fencer's self confidence as well as his self esteem.
FYI - I'm not involved in any of those situations but I see it often.

I suspect this occurs at all clubs/salles/gyms. It's been an issue with my coach that I've had to deal with. Always there are two sides. On one, is the fencer saying "well I paid my money and I ought to get treated as well as anyone else". On the other the coach is seeing differences in the individuals. From his perspective he may see one fencer as having the capacity to be, at most, a recreational fencer and another as having the natural talents necessary to be a competitor. Then add in the fencer's own spirit. Some fencers are born fighters and others are not So does the coach treat them all the same? An extremely difficult task. And coaches have to look at this as a business in which they have a big personal stake. A coach who trains one or more fencers into the top echelons going to be more highly regarded. His club is a more desirable place for other competitive or wannabe competitive fencers to come to. And because of that attractiveness other fencers including the recreational and lower level competitors are going to have a richer experience and be made more competitive. So the coach naturally wants to spend more effort in training the best fencers he has. It's a tight rope walk, the trade off between spending his very finite energies on everyman and the best he can attract.

In my situation I was feeling that I was being shorted by comparison to others. So at a tournament I took my coach aside and had a conversation about the matter pointing out that I was doing what I could to be competitive. Since then I've made the team for two world championships. Not sure of the correlation or if that will work for everyone. But a fencer who stands up and makes the coach aware of their commitment will at least be looked at more closely. By the same token if you're not getting what you want from your current coach then go look for another.

And there are a whole lot of unspoken assumptions in my statements above. We can spend a lot of time discussing whether it's the fencer's natural talent and spirit which makes them a champion or whether the coach trains them. Obviously it is a combination. A coach can hold a fencer back as well as push them into the championships.

Anyways that's my humble opinion.

[remise]

I have fenced for a while, and although my card says 'competition', I rarely do tournaments. I fence mostly for fun, because of my work schedule. (And I have armored for years. Any armorer will tell you that weapons repair can seriously interfere with your strip time).

That being said, I still have a lot more experience than some in my class, and my coach spending more time with one of the students is not a slap against me....they may not be getting a certain drill, for instance, and he is helping them with that.

[griffindm]

I coach 8-10 fencers at a local community club, and another 12 or so at university. I often find myself having to allocate time. At the community club it is easier, as there are organized classes and private lessons, all paid for by the students or their parents. At the university, everything is free, and I have to balance between the desires of the students and the needs of the program.

One thing I do avoid is interfering or coaching during competitve events in bouts between two of my fencers. I will arrange to have other coaches or fencers there for DE rest periods, but I stay out.

At open bouting, however, I will not hesitate to point out where one fencer's actions create openings for the other fencer. This regardless of the standing, skill, or payment status of the fencers involved. My thought is I'm not teaching one fencer how to beat the other. I'm teaching both to recognize openings and to guard against them.

My 2-cents

[peet]

Some may disagree with me, but:


Most of the coaches I know don't coach fencing for the money, they do it for the satisfaction and pride they get from their students' accomplishments. This being the case, if the coach thinks that one student has more potential for achievement (because they work harder, have more talent, athletic ability, or whatever), I wouldn't be surprised to see the coach devote more of their time/energy to that student.

Let's remember, it's as much a commitment of the coaches' time and resources as it is the fencer, and I think coaches should have the freedom to allocate their time the way that gives them the most satisfaction with their career.

Of course, they should be honest about this with their students so that if a student who is getting less time commitment doesn't like it, they can address that issue with the coach in a way that makes them both happy.

-p

[Peach]

Building on what Peet says, I've seen coaches "fall in love" with a student who had potential. Coaches have success because of the successes of their students, and a winner can often be a coach's ticket to coaching success and making a livable salary, because others will come to his or her club drawn by the lure of proximity to someone who produced a winner.

All too often, this love affair has a bad end, though, because the student-with-potential is very likely indeed to go shopping for a better-known coach just when achieving some proficiency and some results. Or, just as commonly, wonder-students leave fencing entirely.

[jBirch]

Fencing instruction is not as school instruction. Coaches do not have to spend their time with students that aren't worth that time.

From the student's perspective, this is important because it necessitates that they take charge of their own training. If they want to become better, then they TAKE more of the coach's time. They don't wait patiently and demurely for the coach to teach them the uber secret techniques that will create success.

A coach will be able to put refinements on your techniques and give you a good progression to get better. But it's nothing if you don't go out and hit the target board 1000 times a day. If you can't find the motivation to get better without your coach, coaching isn't going to add much to the equation.

And dedicated students ALWAYS get preferential treatment. It's part of the learning style at good clubs and it by necessity weeds out students that don't really want to get better.

Hope this helps.

[Mo]

And dedicated students ALWAYS get preferential treatment. It's part of the learning style at good clubs and it by necessity weeds out students that don't really want to get better.

Hope this helps.

You would think so huh? Too bad that is not always true.
The Momster

[bunbury]

You would think so huh? Too bad that is not always true.
The Momster

Sounds like someone feels their child is being slighted... In sports? Unheard of...

[journalmom]

Most of the coaches I know don't coach fencing for the money, they do it for the satisfaction and pride they get from their students' accomplishments. This being the case, if the coach thinks that one student has more potential for achievement (because they work harder, have more talent, athletic ability, or whatever), I wouldn't be surprised to see the coach devote more of their time/energy to that student.

A coach definitely favors those who he thinks would have a future in fencing - for being talented or just being a hard worker.

Let's remember, it's as much a commitment of the coaches' time and resources as it is the fencer, and I think coaches should have the freedom to allocate their time the way that gives them the most satisfaction with their career.

So, if he/she thinks that the fencer doesn't have a chance at winning a national or international tournament, he/she won't spend the time??? That's sad but I guess that's reality in any sport.

Of course, they should be honest about this with their students so that if a student who is getting less time commitment doesn't like it, they can address that issue with the coach in a way that makes them both happy.

Of course, that would make sense, wouldn't it? And the operative word being "honest" but we live in a strange world.

[tbryan]

In my situation I was feeling that I was being shorted by comparison to others. So at a tournament I took my coach aside and had a conversation about the matter pointing out that I was doing what I could to be competitive.

This is an excellent conversation to have, but I would recommend trying not to do it at a tournament. The coach has enough on his mind during a tournament, and taking his time to have this conversation right then probably won't make him any more receptive to the message.

Instead, schedule an appointment to talk to the coach during gym office hours. Or maybe talk to the coach while you're treating him to dinner after the tournament.

Otherwise, the coach's initial response may be, "You're telling me this now?"

[aamct2]

Budgeting time as a coach is hard. You can't be in multiple places at once, nor are practices ever long enough to do everything with everyone you'd like to.

When coaching I take into account what level the student is at, what kind of fencer they want to be (recreational, competitive, somewhere in between), what skills they need and how best they learn (maybe one of the other coaches in the Club would be better or am I the best one for the job?), do they push themselves or are they a fencer who needs to be pushed, are they understanding today's lesson(s), and a large number of other questions that run through my head. Depending on the answers to these questions, I might spend more time with some students than others at a particular practice.

Do I think I do a perfect job budgeting my time between fencers - no. But do I try my best to give all of them what they need - yes. I want them all to succeed in their fencing goals and to have fun. I suspect most coaches want this too and are trying to make it happen.

~aamct2

[peet]

So, if he/she thinks that the fencer doesn't have a chance at winning a national or international tournament, he/she won't spend the time??? That's sad but I guess that's reality in any sport.

You're exaggerating what I said enough to make it sound unreasonable. I don't think a fencer has to be a potential national champion (or even the brother of a national champion!*) to rate any attention at all. I just think that it's ok for a coach to pay extra attention to a fencer that they think could do well.

A good coach will, of course, give everyone at least the attention they deserve, because you never know which might be the "diamond in the rough", and besides, they are of course paying for it.

And if a student isn't getting what they want for their money, they should ditch the coach.

Of course, that would make sense, wouldn't it? And the operative word being "honest" but we live in a strange world.

Well, I don't know how to apologize for dishonest people, but of course I'm not trying to....


-p

* Sorry, inside joke for a buddy of mine...

[VorpalCat]

Another thing to consider is how the fencers in question receive coaching/advice/suggestions. If Fencer X's response is to roll eyes, shrug, make excuses, etc. and Fencer Y's response is to listen, ask questions for clarity, etc., which fencer is a coach more likely going to spend time assisting? ($0 is involved for the coach, just to take that out of the equation.) I had a Fencer X who started complaining during a club practice bout, 'Why doesn't anyone ever offer me any advice or suggestions?' After the bout I took him aside and quietly started to offer him said advice, knowing full well what he was going to do. As soon as the eyeroll started and the excuses came out, I stopped him and said, 'This. This is why you're not getting as much advice. This tells me that you don't want it. I'm one person with limited time and energy so you tell me who I'm going to spend it on, the ones who want it or the ones who don't?' To his credit, he has made an effort to be more receptive since then.