FIE suspends transparent visor mask requirement for foil

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by Warrior Princess

Funny how it isn't suspended in either of the weapons where the HEAD IS ACTUALLY TARGET. Snaps for the FIE.

Well, it's sort of hard to suspend it in epee.

[Grasshopper]

As a foilist (Read: supreme being of athletic skill and tactical mastery), let me comment:

The reduced blockout timing in sabre has made for more point attacks and I have seen two "thrust" related injuries in sabre in the last month. In one of them a point attack penetrated the glove and the unbroken blade went 5cm into the opponent's hand between two knuckles - lots of blood.

The shape of the sabre blade, the violent thrusting which does not have to be precise, like in foil or epee, and the combine speed of two attackers - I see many more injuries ahead.

The FIE shouldn't have screwed with the score-boxes.

On a more Japanese note, the international judo body also screwed up judo by changing the rules to make it easier for audiences to understand. Now it is disadvantageous to try for clean throws. And guess where the international judo body is located. Japan, you say??? Nope! It's in France, too!

It really begs the question: Why do the French insist on screwing up sports?

[fencerX]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Nope! It's in France, too!

It really begs the question: Why do the French insist on screwing up sports?

Your French Connection conspiracy theory has a problem -- the FIE is not based in France. While it may be riddled with French speakers, it is not based in France.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by fencerX

Your French Connection conspiracy theory has a problem -- the FIE is not based in France. While it may be riddled with French speakers, it is not based in France.

I stand corrected.

[veeco]

Yes, lots of sports governing bodies are located in France. Something to do with a certain Coubertin, or something like that. I don't really know what that dude did, but he certainly screwed up sports... I mean, those Frenchmen?!

I will have you know that Judo is the third biggest sport in terms of membership in France, behind soccer and tennis. It also is the sport that brings France the 2nd most medals in Olympic games, behind Fencing. The first non Japanese to win both the heavyweight and open tournaments at world championships in the same year, Frenchman David Douillet is now a huge star in France, and quite renowned in Japan as well.

[the ancient one]

While we muddle through the mysteries of the FIE I thought I would suggest a simple home-brew test for those of you who have FIE welding masks.

Find some old polarizing sunglasses* or a camera polarizing filter and a LCD computer monitor. Open up a blank document or something to get a large section of white screen. Now orient (by rotation) the polarizer so that the screen goes black (hold the polarizer close to your eye. Next move your mask in between the screen and your eye. If you have done it right you will see color shifts over the mask surface. Wherever there is a stress concentration in the material, you will observe more "lines".

In the attached picture a good and defective clear CD are compared. The disc on the left has multiple problems including a crack at 9 o'clock that is not readily visible to the naked eye.

Those of you who have such masks will have to work out on your own what good and bad look like. Actually it would be fun to share photographs of your results. I'll rep you if you post them.

Enjoy.

*another good source are those grey looking 3-d glasses, but be careful they only polarize in 1 direction (they have a waveplate laminated to one side), if you can't black out your screen, flip them over.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by RenegadeStorm88

Perhapse its because of the motions involved in Epee and Foil (thrusting) are different from those involved in Sabre (slashing)

Much of the time, sabre involves cuts and not thrusts.

But point in line does still exist....

Originally Posted by OROD

It makes sense if you consider that epee and foil are point weapons and if the damage done was through a point hit (not a broken blade). A saber just wont cause as much force/momentum on a point hit unless the saber was broken in half first.

.

Oh yes, now, this makes sense. We've never had a problem at a national competition where a sabre fencer was seriously injured (read: hospitalized) because an unbroken sabre created a puncture wound because of a thrust-like action.


WAIT, THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL.


my bad.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by veeco

Frenchman David Douillet is now a huge star in France, and quite renowned in Japan as well.

Never heard of him.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Never heard of him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Douillet

He seems to have won medals at 3 successive Olympics.

It also seems that the International Judo Federation is based in Hungary, and the president is Austrian:

http://www.olympic.org/uk/organisati...6&SportCode=JU

[Draven]

Originally Posted by RenegadeStorm88

Perhapse its because of the motions involved in Epee and Foil (thrusting) are different from those involved in Sabre (slashing)

perhaps you haven't noticed that most of the recent serious injuries have been in Sabre... from point actions.

[chefencer]

The one recent saber injury I know of was not related to the mask however, it was the point slipping under the bib. Have there been others?

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by chefencer

The one recent saber injury I know of was not related to the mask however, it was the point slipping under the bib. Have there been others?

Yep....typically punctures.

What happened was after 2000 -- when the sabre blades were stiffened -- there was no additional requirement that the edges of the folded-over tip be chamfered, so there's still that somewhat sharp edge there.

Not so much of a problem on pre-2000 blades, but the additional stiffness (technically stiffer than an epee blade, as sabre blades are allowed less deflection if tested on a gabrit) means more force is put on the tip in a point attack....so the edge of the tip has more of a chance of slicing through something soft...like a glove or skin.

It happened to one of Edew's students...but the most well-known one around here was a few years back...it was Ye Olde Armourer's daughter's blade that did the puncturing. She did NOTHING wrong at all -- a perfectly legitimate point attack -- but the blade went right though the palm of the glove and into the other woman's arm.

This could be minimized by making the end of the sabre blade a round ball or even by simply chamfering the edges off....but good luck getting the manufacturers to spend the time and manufacturing costs....

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by downunder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Douillet

He seems to have won medals at 3 successive Olympics.

It also seems that the International Judo Federation is based in Hungary, and the president is Austrian:

http://www.olympic.org/uk/organisati...6&SportCode=JU

Wow, your Wikipedia skills are tremendous. How do you do it?

I still haven't heard of him.

[Alex_Paul]

Is there actually any evidence that an incident with a see through mask took place?

Purple Fencer, I don't think it is fair to blame the manufacturers for point injuries. The FIE stiffened the blades, changed the rules to increace the number of point attacks and didn't specify a rule change for the tip!

We have tried to get an increaced surface area on the tip and it doesn't really work without threading the tip and adding a dummy point like you can buy for epee http://www.leonpaulusa.com/fencing/a...s_24.html#aE24

The tips are chamfered before folding over, grinding post folding reduces surface area and doesn't make the tips less likley to go through gloves. LP would do it if there was a requirement and don't forget that in reality the "time and manufacturing costs" just get passed on to fencers!

LP have made some test blades with threaded tips and tried to convince the FIE to consider them but they wern't too interested and fencers didn't like the extra weight on the tip.

[randomsabreur]

I'd like to see the mask, how well maintained it was, and TBH if all the screws holding the visor in place were actually there?

As for sabre points, more weight on the end could give some very "interesting" bruises...

[Barry Paul]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Yep....typically punctures.

What happened was after 2000 -- when the sabre blades were stiffened -- there was no additional requirement that the edges of the folded-over tip be chamfered, so there's still that somewhat sharp edge there.

Not so much of a problem on pre-2000 blades, but the additional stiffness (technically stiffer than an epee blade, as sabre blades are allowed less deflection if tested on a gabrit) means more force is put on the tip in a point attack....so the edge of the tip has more of a chance of slicing through something soft...like a glove or skin.

It happened to one of Edew's students...but the most well-known one around here was a few years back...it was Ye Olde Armourer's daughter's blade that did the puncturing. She did NOTHING wrong at all -- a perfectly legitimate point attack -- but the blade went right though the palm of the glove and into the other woman's arm.

This could be minimized by making the end of the sabre blade a round ball or even by simply chamfering the edges off....but good luck getting the manufacturers to spend the time and manufacturing costs....

Just for the record when the new regulation to make the sabre blade stiffness exactly as stiff as epee blades along with the new timing that discouraged parrying and encourage immediate remise with a straight arm I wrote to the F.I.E. pointing out the dangers. At the last but one World championship Leon Paul presented two sabre blades with 7 mm dia solid points (dummy electric points but very short and light weight) which are attached to the blade with a foil 3.5 mm thread made in the sabre blade. I was told no changes could be made till after the olympics.

Recently I was told that the semi were considering bring in a regulation that the referees must check to see if the gloves were wet and make the fencer change to a dry one on the grounds that wet leather was much weaker than dry leather. $1000 later, of Leon Paul money, and the ITV test results showed this was not true. ( how about a retraction on your last sentence?)http://www.fencing.net/forums/images/smilies/freak2.gif

[Purple Fencer]

LP has proven to be the exception....but it's still a problem.

[Hollywood Troy]

Speaking of the visor mask in sabre, I watched a few of the world cup matches. I guess the visor was supposed to make things better for the audience so they could see the fencers face? Has anyone brought up they can see the fencers face just fine if they take off their mask every third touch or so to argue with the ref?

The FIE could have just sent out a memo to argue more in the world cups and left the masks alone.

[evaluna]

Originally Posted by OROD

Foil feels as much like a "fight" as does epee. But while epee is just about poking the other guy first, foil has rules that make it more of a game... which to many of us makes it more fun. We also like actually moving and having to use speed and distance to hit the other guy. Standing around trying to poke the other guy in the arm before he pokes you is fun for all of 5 minutes. After that, if you want more depth, come fence foil.

.

Sorry, I have to disagree... you have to hit while avoid being hit... and that involves tactics... plus... you have to really take the blade.... not just barely touch it to establish right of way.

However, I enjoy watching a good foil match... it's too limiting to be narrow minded and not broaden my horizons.