Unsportsmanlike Behavior

[dadofbag]

A Junior fencer, currently ranked in the top five in the country, was having a hard time with a younger fencer in his pool in the Division 1 in Atlanta last Friday. When the score was tied 4-4, he was awarded the ninth touch by the referee. At this point, he took off his mask, roared once then walked up to the younger fencer and repeated the roar right in his face. The ref took no action, other than to tell the winner "don't do that again".

Was this the correct action by the ref?

[Zilverzmurfen]

A Junior fencer, currently ranked in the top five in the country, was having a hard time with a younger fencer in his pool in the Division 1 in Atlanta last Friday. When the score was tied 4-4, he was awarded the ninth touch by the referee. At this point, he took off his mask, roared once then walked up to the younger fencer and repeated the roar right in his face. The ref took no action, other than to tell the winner "don't do that again".

Was this the correct action by the ref?

That's definitely a cardable offense. Though it would probably not affect the outcome of the bout, I'm afraid.

Bad bad behaviour!

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Pretty common at a div 1 NAC.

Not saying its right, but its nothing out of the ordinary.

Cardable, but its not really worth the trouble.

Though for what its worth, if somebody did that to me, I would kick the **** out of them and get myself black carded.

[dadofbag]

Pretty common at a div 1 NAC.

Not saying its right, but its nothing out of the ordinary.

Cardable, but its not really worth the trouble.

Though for what its worth, if somebody did that to me, I would kick the **** out of them and get myself black carded.

Understood - I was just wondering if it merited a red card, thereby potentially reversing the result of the bout.

I can't help feeling that the fact the guy was so well known helped him get away with being an ass to his latest 'victim'.

[NotIndPk]

Pretty common at a div 1 NAC.

Not saying its right, but its nothing out of the ordinary.

Cardable, but its not really worth the trouble.

...are not "worth the trouble?".

As someone new to this sport, it would be great to know what other clear violations of the rules occur but are considered unworthy of enforcement. This way we can all know what rules to break.

Since the level of event (Div I NAC) apparently is connected to what one can get away with and so is National Ranking, kindly feel free to use the following format:

Event level:
Offense "Not Worth It":
Ranking on National Points List:

Once this list is complete, I would forward this to the FOC, so that they may incorporate it in the USFA Rule Book.

By the way, this offending fencer is also ranked 2nd or 3rd on the National Complete Jerk List.

[NotIndPk]

Though for what its worth, if somebody did that to me, I would kick the **** out of them and get myself black carded.

Me too.

[RebelFencer]

Happens all the time. The kid didn't yell anything profane from what I hear, so he just took his scream a little too far. And if that's the first time it happened during the entire bout then that's yellow card at the worst. Either way, since the bout was over and the yellow card wouldn't affect any subsequent bout then there really was no point in awarding a card regardless of who it was or what their national ranking was.

[pokey]

Ah, but what if the ref threw a black card for offense against sportsmanship, and it got upheld by the BC?

If this kind of thing is undesirable behavior that the powers that be want to discourage, what better way to alter fencer behavior quickly than to show that even a junior national points list at a Div1 NAC does not get a free pass on sportsmanship, in a pool no less?

[RebelFencer]

Ah, but what if the ref threw a black card for offense against sportsmanship, and it got upheld by the BC?

If this kind of thing is undesirable behavior that the powers that be want to discourage, what better way to alter fencer behavior quickly than to show that even a junior national points list at a Div1 NAC does not get a free pass on sportsmanship, in a pool no less?

Then obviously the person would be Black Carded and ejected from the event. The problem with your "What if" argument is that what the kid did is not black cardable at all. There is no rated director in the country who will black card someone for just that. Therefore why get worked up over hypothetical situations?

[bunbury]

A Junior fencer, currently ranked in the top five in the country, was having a hard time with a younger fencer in his pool in the Division 1 in Atlanta last Friday. When the score was tied 4-4, he was awarded the ninth touch by the referee. At this point, he took off his mask, roared once then walked up to the younger fencer and repeated the roar right in his face. The ref took no action, other than to tell the winner "don't do that again".

Was this the correct action by the ref?

If anyone is curious, based off of dadofbag's description, it was Kurt Getz who did this.

[dadofbag]

If anyone is curious, based off of dadofbag's description, it was Kurt Getz who did this.

No sir. It was not Kurt Getz.

[Goldgar]

A Junior fencer, currently ranked in the top five in the country, was having a hard time with a younger fencer in his pool in the Division 1 in Atlanta last Friday. When the score was tied 4-4, he was awarded the ninth touch by the referee. At this point, he took off his mask, roared once then walked up to the younger fencer and repeated the roar right in his face. The ref took no action, other than to tell the winner "don't do that again".

Was this the correct action by the ref?

I would seriously consider black-carding this unsportsmanlike conduct.

[NotIndPk]

Happens all the time. The kid didn't yell anything profane from what I hear, so he just took his scream a little too far. And if that's the first time it happened during the entire bout then that's yellow card at the worst. Either way, since the bout was over and the yellow card wouldn't affect any subsequent bout then there really was no point in awarding a card regardless of who it was or what their national ranking was.

.....Mr. Jerk gets the 9th touch, turns away from his opponent and screams..fine so far, but THEN turns back, gets into his opponent's face, inches away, and screams again...

...is that STILL ""a little too far", or would you like to review your opinion again...?

Let me suggest that kind of behavior is a Group Three Red card at the very least -you just cannot be allowed to taunt and or get into your opponent's face no matter who you are.

I still say the other fencer should have responded in kind....he expected the referee to apply the unsportsmanlike conduct rules but instead got a chicken-hearted, cowardly, "don't do that again".

The referee should ashamed of himself.......

[RebelFencer]

.....Mr. Jerk gets the 9th touch, turns away from his opponent and screams..fine so far, but THEN turns back, gets into his opponent's face, inches away, and screams again...

...is that STILL ""a little too far", or would you like to review your opinion again...?

Let me suggest that kind of behavior is a Group Three Red card at the very least -you just cannot be allowed to taunt and or get into your opponent's face no matter who you are.

I still say the other fencer should have responded in kind....he expected the referee to apply the unsportsmanlike conduct rules but instead got a chicken-hearted, cowardly, "don't do that again".

The referee should ashamed of himself.......

Not at all. I still don't think that warrants a red card and certainly not a Group III. Is it a dick move? Sure it is. But the kid didn't scream anything profane or taunting from what I gathered from the initial post. He saluted and shook the kid's hand. I would yellow card if that happened only because he took it too far and might have disturbed order, but you're going to have to mess up pretty bad to get unsportsmanlike in this sport. He took the scream too far, yes, but not far enough to warrant anything besides verbal correction or a yellow card at the worst. Now if he ripped his mask off and screamed, "That's right mother ----er, you aren't ----." Then yes, that or anything remotely similar is certainly over the line of unsportsmanlike behavior. In fact, my example would most definately be a black card 99% of the time. But you just have to remember, this is Div 1 and stress/tension is high.. so some of that is going to be taken into consideration.

To summarize, director made the right call in not red/black carding but the kid in question was still out of line.

[peet]

I agree that if this was a one time incident from a fencer that has not done anything else of the kind, that I would probably not card them this time, but have a nice little talk with them.

However,

And if that's the first time it happened during the entire bout then that's yellow card at the worst.

Not at all. I still don't think that warrants a red card and certainly not a Group III.

If you were to give them a yellow card, under what offense would it be? I don't think there's anything in the first group that really applies here. I think Group 3 is really the lowest penalty can be correctly applied in cases like this.

-p

[Zilverzmurfen]

But the kid didn't scream anything profane or taunting from what I gathered from the initial post. He saluted and shook the kid's hand.

That's not what it said in the original post though:

At this point, he took off his mask, roared once then walked up to the younger fencer and repeated the roar right in his face.

[HDG]

I agree that if this was a one time incident from a fencer that has not done anything else of the kind, that I would probably not card them this time, but have a nice little talk with them.

So, we're giving pre-warnings now?

[RebelFencer]

If you were to give them a yellow card, under what offense would it be? I don't think there's anything in the first group that really applies here. I think Group 3 is really the lowest penalty can be correctly applied in cases like this.

-p

Disrupting the order of the strip. And if that wouldn't warrant a yellow card then I guess I just wouldn't card unless they crossed into an area that covered the infraction.

[jBirch]

What about Red Card for "disturbing order on the strip" (RED III) and forced to refence the last point?

I'd have to agree that the description of the event is definitely over the line in my mind. It's the same as throwing one's mask after losing or refusing to salute. It is NOT in the spirit of a frank and courteous encounter.

Very, very, very poor form regardless.

James.

[pokey]

The problem with your "What if" argument is that what the kid did is not black cardable at all. There is no rated director in the country who will black card someone for just that.

I'm asking this not to be a contentious jerk, so please don't take it that way. But I ask this because I genuinely don't understand and I'm not a director.

If spiking a mask after a bout is a black cardable offense (presumably because that's an offense to sportsmanship), how is "walk[ing] up to the younger fencer and repeated the roar right in his face" not an offense to sportsmanship? Isn't taunting after you win more unsportsmanlike than throwing a tantrum by chucking your mask after you lose?

I guess fundamentally I don't think the lack of "that's right, suck it n00b" is a critical distinction to me.

I'll accept that directors won't call it that way, but why not?