How to perform mask test...VIDEO

[Purple Fencer]

http://homfencing.com/mask.mov

In answer to all those "how do you use the punch" questions...

Enjoy...AND TEST IT CORRECTLY!!

[Jvanhousen]

Sam,
Good info, but a couple of questions:
At the end of the vid you say "punch punch punch", but you actually did: punch punch punch punch punch punch, (ie. both sides).
I always heard 6 was excessive.
Also, what's up w/ FIE labeled masks, don't they get special dispensation, that is, if they look good you can forgo the punch test altogether?
Thanks for straightening this out.
J.

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

http://homfencing.com/mask.mov

In answer to all those "how do you use the punch" questions...

Enjoy...AND TEST IT CORRECTLY!!

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Jvanhousen

Sam,
Good info, but a couple of questions:
At the end of the vid you say "punch punch punch", but you actually did: punch punch punch punch punch punch, (ie. both sides).
I always heard 6 was excessive.
Also, what's up w/ FIE labeled masks, don't they get special dispensation, that is, if they look good you can forgo the punch test altogether?
Thanks for straightening this out.
J.

Repeated punching in the SAME SPOT is excessive...testing both sides in front of the eyes, cheek, and mouth is not.

FIE masks don't HAVE to be checked outside of the visual inspection.....but we're allowed to test any mask we suspect...and i suspect ALL of them.

Sure....that's a CYA situation, but better that than give an FIE a visual onlhy, then have it fail....

[aamct2]

Good video. Thank you!

[brtech]

There is no rule, and no agreement among armorers, over how many punches and where to punch. I personally do 5 usually: one over each eye, one over the nose to one side and the mouth to the other and then one on the side of the mask near an ear. I alternate which side I start with.

On an FIE mask in very good condition, I might do one or two, and if the mesh seems very tight, I'll stop. If I have ANY question, I'll do 4 or 5.

Nearly every armorer does it somewhat differently.

[bigdawg2121]

I'm still not sure how I feel about the whole FAIL in gigantic marker thing. I once had a mask fail a punch test technically. Probe went to the shoulder and the armorer (Dan DeChaine)* looked at it, took out a small hook-like tool, adjusted it a tiny bit and retested. Afterwards it passed. It continued to pass. It would actually still pass if I fixed a tear in the bib lame and didn't use my visor instead. That particular FIE mask got me through 6 or 7 seasons of a lot of local, regional, national, and international events. I never felt unsafe and it never failed again, even in tests made by armorers that are well respected (and in some cases frequent FNetters). Why is it that folks are always so quick to render the mask unusable?


Edit: *To this day, I have to thank Dan for that b/c frankly there's no way I really could have afforded to buy another one at that point and I may have been precluded from fencing at some events that were very important to my fencing career.

[veeco]

I'm still unsure about the whole mask testing thing myself... If the test can damage the mask, when done too often, I'd prefer it not done to my mask.

When was the last time someone had a mask fail with a blade going through it?

Before you mention Smirnov, please remember that FIE masks now have much more stringent regulations on the strength of the mesh.

[KD5MDK]

Last case I know of personally was 2004 or so. It was a Negrini that failed at Clear Lake Fencing Club in Houston and narrowly escaped eye penetration (blade pierced the skin on the outside of the skull and went back towards the ear.

[brtech]

Originally Posted by veeco

I'm still unsure about the whole mask testing thing myself... If the test can damage the mask, when done too often, I'd prefer it not done to my mask.

Since I have found FIE masks that have failed, your suggestion is that I should not look for such failures any more. No thank you.

Let me turn it around: can you cite an instance where properly applied punch testing has caused a failure?

That is a theoretic possibility, and certainly more than theoretic if the test is improperly done. On the other hand, I'd bet money that the probability of an actual failure due to testing, even if every tournament a fencer participates in has an armorer who does 6-8 punch tests, is so low as to be insignificant. The fencer will buy a new mask for other reasons before it happens.

[bigdawg2121]

Originally Posted by brtech

Since I have found FIE masks that have failed, your suggestion is that I should not look for such failures any more. No thank you.

Let me turn it around: can you cite an instance where properly applied punch testing has caused a failure?

That is a theoretic possibility, and certainly more than theoretic if the test is improperly done. On the other hand, I'd bet money that the probability of an actual failure due to testing, even if every tournament a fencer participates in has an armorer who does 6-8 punch tests, is so low as to be insignificant. The fencer will buy a new mask for other reasons before it happens.

So punching a mask is not going to cause appreciable damage when done correctly, even over time. It shouldn't cause a subsequent failure either. If done incorrectly the test will certainly hurt the mask to some degree.

Arguably then, wouldn't a visual inspection be enough for any mask that had previously passed a test. Punching would only be necessary when there was visual evidence that the mask might be questionable? Otherwise, punching is introducing a few new stresses to the mask that will ultimately be negligible. The fencer would probably replace the mask before the mesh would fail.

[brtech]

Visual inspections often do highlight mask failure points, which is why we hold up the mask and look through it. You can see deformed mesh quite easily. However, not all failures are visible, and so we can't rely on visual alone.

Generally, you can tell pretty readily with the first punch if the mesh is in good shape, but you really shouldn't stop there unless it's a new mask. So a visual and a small number of punches ought to be good enough for a relatively new FIE mask. More punches are warranted on a non FIE mask, and on older, more worn FIE masks.

In our division, we once tried using a date stamp for mask mark, and didn't require a punch test within 90 days of a prior test. After a year, we felt we weren't really significantly helping masks stay alive, and we were uncomfortable sticking our neck out and saying 90 days was enough, 120 was too much and 89 was too little. These days, we punch test every mask for every local tournament.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by brtech

In our division, we once tried using a date stamp for mask mark, and didn't require a punch test within 90 days of a prior test. After a year, we felt we weren't really significantly helping masks stay alive, and we were uncomfortable sticking our neck out and saying 90 days was enough, 120 was too much and 89 was too little. These days, we punch test every mask for every local tournament.

Theres also the chance that a mask had a flaw that would immediately fail it that was not caught at a previous event. I think it was last season I was working an Orange Coast tourney. Donald Clinton was there (as usual...he's the Division Armorer) and he was doing mask checks next to my table.

He took a mask, gave it the visual....and spotted a broken wire on the face....immediate failure.

The fencer's parent complained that it "passed at JOs" (which were a week or 2 earlier).....fine & dandy....but it didn't pass today! Either the break was missed by the JO armoring crew (which I find a little unlikely) or the break happened between JOs and the OC event. Testing every 90 days would do NO goo in this case....what if Donald had missed the broken wire and the test punch hadn't been on the break? A potentially VERY dangerous situation.

Thus, out here they get tested....every time...period.

Veeco: As has been said many times on this board....repeated testing in the same spot could damage the mesh....the odds of hitting the same spot with a single punch at different events however is beyond huge!

As an FYI....before shooting that video, I attempted to force a failure...about 20 punches on the exact same spot...no failure....I actually had to physically separate the strands to show the failure I shot!

A new mask CAN fail a properly administered test....saw it happen at a SoCal tourney around 1998 or 99....the mask was still in the packaging...armorer does the test...POP.....right through in front of the eye!!

And THAT is what the punch test is designed to find.

[bigdawg2121]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

I'm still not sure how I feel about the whole FAIL in gigantic marker thing. I once had a mask fail a punch test technically. Probe went to the shoulder and the armorer (Dan DeChaine)* looked at it, took out a small hook-like tool, adjusted it a tiny bit and retested. Afterwards it passed. It continued to pass. It would actually still pass if I fixed a tear in the bib lame and didn't use my visor instead. That particular FIE mask got me through 6 or 7 seasons of a lot of local, regional, national, and international events. I never felt unsafe and it never failed again, even in tests made by armorers that are well respected (and in some cases frequent FNetters). Why is it that folks are always so quick to render the mask unusable?


Edit: *To this day, I have to thank Dan for that b/c frankly there's no way I really could have afforded to buy another one at that point and I may have been precluded from fencing at some events that were very important to my fencing career.

Still no response to this though...was Dan just plain wrong for giving my mask a second life? Are there often situations in which a "FAIL" can be fixed?

[veeco]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Last case I know of personally was 2004 or so. It was a Negrini that failed at Clear Lake Fencing Club in Houston and narrowly escaped eye penetration (blade pierced the skin on the outside of the skull and went back towards the ear.

Not an FIE mask...

See Best Mask?

[veeco]

Originally Posted by brtech

Since I have found FIE masks that have failed, your suggestion is that I should not look for such failures any more. No thank you.

Did they fail because of repeated testing on them? You can't say it wasn't the case. Would they have failed if a broken blade had come full speed at them?

Let me turn it around: can you cite an instance where properly applied punch testing has caused a failure?

I don't need to, every armorer says that repeated testing can provoke such failures.

That is a theoretic possibility, and certainly more than theoretic if the test is improperly done. On the other hand, I'd bet money that the probability of an actual failure due to testing, even if every tournament a fencer participates in has an armorer who does 6-8 punch tests, is so low as to be insignificant. The fencer will buy a new mask for other reasons before it happens.

Humm, let's see, I fence in about 10 events a year where my mask gets punch tested. That's 60 to 80 punch tests to my mask, in a year. It seems like you guys like to hit the same spots every time, so the argument that the tests aren't done in the same place doesn't seem to hold IMO. Plus it only takes one case of improperly done punch test to ruin my mask. If an armorer does that, and breaks my mask, am I expected to ask them to buy me a new one? How can I prove that the test wasn't administered properly?

Punch testing every mask that comes to your table, even recent FIE ones is just a waste of time (both our time), and of my money.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Veeco: As has been said many times on this board....repeated testing in the same spot could damage the mesh....the odds of hitting the same spot with a single punch at different events however is beyond huge!

Well, aren't you all hitting the same area, as you recommended in your video?

What about someone who does it improperly? Not all armorers know what they are doing. Sometimes I see wannabe armorers doing punch tests, and they don't know what they are doing.

A new mask CAN fail a properly administered test....saw it happen at a SoCal tourney around 1998 or 99....the mask was still in the packaging...armorer does the test...POP.....right through in front of the eye!!

And THAT is what the punch test is designed to find.

Was it an FIE mask? A cheap chinese one? Was the test improperly administered? Could a visual inspection beforehand have given some clues as to what was about to happen? And finally, why was this mask tested when still in its packaging?

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by veeco

Not an FIE mask...

See Best Mask?

You didn't specify. In any event, most places do not require FIE masks.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by veeco

I don't need to, every armorer says that repeated testing can provoke such failures.

IF THE TEST IS REPEATED IN THE SAME EXACT SPOT!! Jeez....how many times does an ARMORER have to repeat this part??

Humm, let's see, I fence in about 10 events a year where my mask gets punch tested. That's 60 to 80 punch tests to my mask, in a year. It seems like you guys like to hit the same spots every time, so the argument that the tests aren't done in the same place doesn't seem to hold IMO.

Sorry, but no....we don't go looking for the 5th row down from the reinforcement band and 3rd column from teh center line....we may test the same AREA....but that could be as big a 4 square inches in which to place the probe.

Plus it only takes one case of improperly done punch test to ruin my mask. If an armorer does that, and breaks my mask, am I expected to ask them to buy me a new one? How can I prove that the test wasn't administered properly?

That's why I made teh video...and if you know how to PROPERLY do the test and can prove that damage wa cause by it being done wrong, you'd have a leg to stand on.

Punch testing every mask that comes to your table, even recent FIE ones is just a waste of time (both our time), and of my money.

Sorry for potentially saving your LIFE. What part of this do you NOT understand?

Look at it this way.....if you're competing at an even and I'm doing mask check....your mask WILL get punch tested...FIE or not -- you don't have a choice. I don;t care if you;re Rene Roch....its getting punched.