Questions About Italian Grips in Epee

[Stormbringer]

Some background: I am rather partial to French grips, but I'll pull out my Belgian-gripped weapon from time to time, when the whim strikes.

Now, to the point:

I realize that many (most?) fencers consider the Italian grip to be ill-suited the tactics and technique employed in the modern form of the game. It seems, from my readings of this thread, that this is perhaps more true for foil than epee, although this could be attributed to most of the posts in which the Italian grip is mentioned being foil-centric...

There were a few times where I had toyed with the notion of eventually acquiring an Italian grip, because I think it would be interesting to try out (and to see, first-hand, what all of the fuss is about).

I have the following questions (although more may follow at a later time):

1.) For those who have used this style of grip in an epee bout, what is your impression if it?

2.) I've seen pictures of a rather nice-looking version produced by one Tom Rockwell. If I were to decide to acquire such a grip, I would like it to be of this type. How does one go about ordering such a thing? Is this particular product still offered by AmFence (apparently Mr. Rockwell's official distributer)?

3.) I've noticed that a lot of the examples of epees with Italian-style grips lack the additional ring-like quillions normally seen on the foil version. I've also seen an example of an epee with an Italian-style grip that does feature these. Additionally, I have never seen an example of an Italian-gripped foil that does not have these (i.e. the grip is just a crossbar and ricasso, as with the epee). Does the presence (or absence) of these additional quillions present some advantage or disadvantage (versus the other)?

[InFerrumVeritas]

I have used the Italian for three years, and while foil is my primary weapon, I did try epee with it for a while. I have recently (in the past week) switched to a Belgian grip.

1.) For those who have used this style of grip in an epee bout, what is your impression if it?

It is difficult to use the precise control required to hit delicate targets like the hand. The posting advantage of the French is thrown off by how the crossbar further unbalances the weapon and the crossbar catches on your finger.

3.) I've noticed that a lot of the examples of epees with Italian-style grips lack the additional ring-like quillions normally seen on the foil version. I've also seen an example of an epee with an Italian-style grip that does feature these. Additionally, I have never seen an example of an Italian-gripped foil that does not have these (i.e. the grip is just a crossbar and ricasso, as with the epee). Does the presence (or absence) of these additional quillions present some advantage or disadvantage (versus the other)?

It provides no advantage or disadvantage that I have notices, as it is the crossbar and ricasso that is used when holding the grip. I prefer it with these, however, as my finger feels (but isn't) more secure.

[RebelFencer]

If you want to do it for fun or just to do something different then awesome. But you are going to be more limited in a lot of areas. Italian grips are not good for fencing if you want to do it at a relatively high level.

[InFerrumVeritas]

If you want to do it for fun or just to do something different then awesome. But you are going to be more limited in a lot of areas. Italian grips are not good for fencing if you want to do it at a relatively high level.

Agreed. I just wish my coach didn't have the "I wanted you to figure this out for yourself" policy. I mean it worked, and I now understand why not to use one (which is somthing I probably wouldn't have learned no matter how many times explained to me).

I still enjoy using it in practice, as I like the way they feel, but when I am doing anything more than instructing, I switch to my Belgian.

[mrbiggs]

It's illegal to post with an Italian.

(by post I mean hold the grip by the end, not talk on the forum.)

[InFerrumVeritas]

It's illegal to post with an Italian.

(by post I mean hold the grip by the end, not talk on the forum.)

Yeah, that too.

[Stormbringer]

If you want to do it for fun or just to do something different then awesome. But you are going to be more limited in a lot of areas. Italian grips are not good for fencing if you want to do it at a relatively high level.

More limited in comparison to...?

I would like to try it for the sake of trying something different, to learn more about it, and to perhaps achieve to a more solid understanding (as InFerrumVeritas seems to have done) of why such a large portion of the fencing community seems to disdain it.

After all, isn't the Italian just another style of grip, with its own advantages and disadvantages (based on both the physical structure of the grip AND how a given fencer chooses to employ it), just like any other? Surely the bolded portion of the quote can be applied to any fencer/grip combination, right?

As an example: most people tend to recommend only using a French grip if one intends to post. A lot of people have become very good at fencing in this way. Personally, I very rarely post with my own French-gripped epees, as I don't like the loss of point control (a posted French grip must surely be the worst possible configuration for point control, right?) and greater exposure of the hand. Yet I have beaten, and been beaten by, fellow fencers who do exactly this (posting). I have also beaten, and been beaten by, fellow fencers who prefer orthopedic grips of various styles.

(In fact, I'm more likely to post with a foil than an epee; I actually managed to win a foil bout against a formerly* competitive foilist in this way. Of course, she then proceeded to utterly decimate me in a rematch the following week...)

The grip alone does not the fencer make, right?


* She is a friend of mine who had a bit of a falling out with her club's head coach, left said club, and stopped going to USFA events, but she kept fencing with my college's club, so it's not like she was totally out of practice...

[Stormbringer]

I have used the Italian for three years, and while foil is my primary weapon, I did try epee with it for a while. I have recently (in the past week) switched to a Belgian grip.

It is difficult to use the precise control required to hit delicate targets like the hand. The posting advantage of the French is thrown off by how the crossbar further unbalances the weapon and the crossbar catches on your finger.

Is the point control really that bad? I've heard that the point tends to be "livelier" with the Italian than with a French or orthopedic grip, but surely a given fencer with an Italian would have better point control than, say, the same fencer with a posted French (assuming equal amounts and degrees of exposure/practice with each)?

Operating on the "control surfaces" idea (that is, the idea that a grip with more surface area to which forces can be applied could provide finer control as well as a better grip on the grip in question; I believe a similar, albeit more eloquently worded, argument was posted some time ago as a reason for the ortho grips' superiority to the French grip, or even why some orthos might be better than others), I thought that, for a given fencer, point control offered would/should be:

(appropriate) ortho grip > Italian ≥ "normally held" French >> posted French

[erooMynohtnA]

Is the point control really that bad? I've heard that the point tends to be "livelier" with the Italian than with a French or orthopedic grip, but surely a given fencer with an Italian would have better point control than, say, the same fencer with a posted French (assuming equal amounts and degrees of exposure/practice with each)?

Operating on the "control surfaces" idea (that is, the idea that a grip with more surface area to which forces can be applied could provide finer control as well as a better grip on the grip in question; I believe a similar, albeit more eloquently worded, argument was posted some time ago as a reason for the ortho grips' superiority to the French grip, or even why some orthos might be better than others), I thought that, for a given fencer, point control offered would/should be:

(appropriate) ortho grip > Italian ≥ "normally held" French >> posted French

Livelier is just an unquantifiable word that people use to justify an unjustifiable position. And since you can't test for "liveliness" no one can prove them wrong. Now here's where I'm going to be a jerk.

"Why are Chinese Reverse Diagonal Moon Shadow grips the best? Because they feel more perky. They smell more capricious. What? You've never felt the perk of a Chinese Reverse Diagonal? You've never tasted the caprice? Well, some people don't like them because they don't have this gnosis I have attained through my extensive studies on the ****ing moon with Super-Maestro Aldo F. Evangelista the XLII. However, if you ever attain my level of ridiculous skill, you will understand. You also won't compete or train successful fencers, because that's just not what we do. But we do talk about fencing a lot in our stupid moon language."

I'm scared of you trying the Italian, because you said you post in foil. Posting in foil is possibly the most useless thing anyone can do. Obviously an Italian is going to be better than a posted French (more powerful, certainly), and then you'll like it, and then you'll continue to use it--thinking you've picked up some of that secret moon juice. And then you'll spread that secret moon **** around, and this whole retarded cycle will start over again, and a couple years later I'll be telling someone this exact same thing again because they saw you using an Italian.

[SJCFU#2]

I would like to try it for the sake of trying something different, to learn more about it, and to perhaps achieve to a more solid understanding (as InFerrumVeritas seems to have done) of why such a large portion of the fencing community seems to disdain it.

You can try learning through experimentation, however it will probably be far more efficient to learn from the experience of others.

Italian grips didn't fall out of favor simply because someone woke up one morning and said "Hey, lets all try a different grip!" and everyone else followed them like lemmings. It fell out of favor as a couple of generations of fencers experimented with other grips and decided that these "new" grips were superior to what they had originally trained with.

[Hauptman]

I've used most grips out there, including the italian when I was training with italian coaches for a few years.

The italian grip gives a very blade-centered focus. What I mean is that you have balance and feedback that really tells you where the blade is at, which accounts for the italian school's focus on actions taking the blade.

For foil, I found that blade-centered feel quite usable. For epee, which is a much more point focused weapon, I found the italian grip less effective because I was doing fewer actions on the blade, more absence of the blade, and was more focused on point control attacks to the hand/arm.

Of course, your experience may vary.

[veeco]

Italian Grip should be a censored word on these boards

[Stormbringer]

Livelier is just an unquantifiable word that people use to justify an unjustifiable position. And since you can't test for "liveliness" no one can prove them wrong. Now here's where I'm going to be a jerk.

"Why are Chinese Reverse Diagonal Moon Shadow grips the best? Because they feel more perky. They smell more capricious. What? You've never felt the perk of a Chinese Reverse Diagonal? You've never tasted the caprice? Well, some people don't like them because they don't have this gnosis I have attained through my extensive studies on the ****ing moon with Super-Maestro Aldo F. Evangelista the XLII. However, if you ever attain my level of ridiculous skill, you will understand. You also won't compete or train successful fencers, because that's just not what we do. But we do talk about fencing a lot in our stupid moon language."

I'm scared of you trying the Italian, because you said you post in foil. Posting in foil is possibly the most useless thing anyone can do. Obviously an Italian is going to be better than a posted French (more powerful, certainly), and then you'll like it, and then you'll continue to use it--thinking you've picked up some of that secret moon juice. And then you'll spread that secret moon **** around, and this whole retarded cycle will start over again, and a couple years later I'll be telling someone this exact same thing again because they saw you using an Italian.

Response to 1st paragraph:

I suppose that's true. However, I was under the impression that perhaps this "liveliness" could be thought of as the inverse of degree of precision controllability (i.e. high liveliness = less precise control, for a given level of effort).

Response to paragraphs 2 and 3:

The story I related was meant as merely an anecdote (a short story or statement recounting an interesting and/or amusing biographical incident) of how doing something generally accepted to be completely useless (posting in foil) with a tool that ts generally considered useless (French-gripped foil) can, on occasion, yield a completely unexpected result (my winning a foil bout, let alone doing so in such an unusual manner; of course, this particular outcome can be expected to occur with a frequency of about once per standard solar lifetime ).

Surely you've heard the phrase, "that's just crazy enough to work", right?

Here are some things I would like to place particular emphasis on:

1.) I DID point out that I seldomly post in epee, did I not?

2.) I am, in fact, fully aware that changing my primary grips from French to Italian (or Visconti, or anything else) would NOT automatically make me a better fencer.

3.) Even in the effectively-null likelihood that I would become some great fencer worthy of emulation, I would most likely still be using my French grips (as I personally find them to be more effective and comfortable than anything else I've tried so far), which would mean, if were to mirror your scenario completely, that you'd have to go around telling people not to use French grips in epee. I suspect we know how successful that campaign would be .

I look at the Italian grip, and I see a design that, while ancient, appears to blend elements (both positive and negative) of the French grips I prefer and the more popular orthopedic grips, which is something I thought was rather interesting, and therefore worth taking a closer look at, gathering some data about, and perhaps even experimenting with (should the opportunity present itself).

Have I sufficiently allayed your concerns?

[InFerrumVeritas]

Is the point control really that bad? I've heard that the point tends to be "livelier" with the Italian than with a French or orthopedic grip, but surely a given fencer with an Italian would have better point control than, say, the same fencer with a posted French (assuming equal amounts and degrees of exposure/practice with each)?

It's not that the point control is bad. My point control with an Italain grip is excellent. It is that many of the actions use the wrist more than one would with a ortho grip. It does use the fingers, but to a lesser extent. It thus makes one's feints easier to see and means that one's parries tend to be larger. While I feel that I have a more solid parry with an Italian than with an ortho, my ortho parry is better because it is smaller (using more of the fingers, instead of the wrist) and thus quicker, allowing a better riposte. In epee, the parries are too slow and realitively easy to avoid for a quick remise on your forearm.

What I said before on posting could have been misleading. I personally find a French easier to post with, and the legality of posting with an Italian is questionable. Your point control will take a hit either way.

From what I know from use, those who use a true ricasso are the ones that describe the point as more livelier. This is because of the desire to "feel the blade" of your opponent and ususally manifests itself in a series of slides or taps along your opponent's blade.

Also, when one attacks, it can seem like one will miss one's target for a split second due to the balance shifting in one's fingers (specifically on disengages and "dropping" the point for an attack in eight), but then one hits (precisely, if practiced). This does not seem that way to your opponent, however, and thus is not an advantage.

Operating on the "control surfaces" idea (that is, the idea that a grip with more surface area to which forces can be applied could provide finer control as well as a better grip on the grip in question; I believe a similar, albeit more eloquently worded, argument was posted some time ago as a reason for the ortho grips' superiority to the French grip, or even why some orthos might be better than others), I thought that, for a given fencer, point control offered would/should be:

(appropriate) ortho grip > Italian ≥ "normally held" French >> posted French

This could be true, as I have not fenced long with an ortho and so my point control is bound to be better with an Italian. However, I would think that

ortho ≥ Italian

is more likely, with the advantage being that the ortho requires smaller movements than both the French and Italian grips do, and so is more useful in other applications (feints, etc.) than either of the grips.

I do think that while all of the grips can be equal as far as point control goes, it is easier to learn it with an ortho and Italian than with a French, but that the ortho and French allow for smaller finger movements and thus are more useful in modern fencing (but before the ortho, the stability and ease of point control was an advantage for the Italian, as well as the stronger parries mentioned before, this is outdated--with the exception of the stronger parries, in my opinion--by the ortho).

On a side note, the Italian's ability to take the blade and bind rather well could be useful in epee, but is not really enough to build a modern strategy around, and thus I would still not reccomend it for anything other than practice (as it is fun to use). The "finger hook" on a Belgian seems to give a similar advantage (hence why I switched to it).

[veeco]

Guys, point control is not the same thing as precision.

One is extremly useful in fencing (point control), the other much less so. I've seen fencers with excellent point control who couldn't hit the proverbial golf ball, and I've seen fencers with terrible point control who could hit it.

Get with the program.

[forethought]

I have an Italian epee from Negrini, and while I'm a foilist that dabbles in epee when asked, here are my observations, take them with a grain of salt:

1.) For those who have used this style of grip in an epee bout, what is your impression if it?

Center of balance is closer to the guard than an ortho, though not as close as my French grip epee (which is right in front of the guard). Controlling blade actions feel stronger, esp. when using a wrist strap. I have no problem with my point control in terms of any point lagging or needed compensation.

2.) I've seen pictures of a rather nice-looking version produced by one Tom Rockwell. If I were to decide to acquire such a grip, I would like it to be of this type. How does one go about ordering such a thing? Is this particular product still offered by AmFence (apparently Mr. Rockwell's official distributer)?

I have not seen Tom's Italian epee guard, so I really can't comment on this part.

3.) I've noticed that a lot of the examples of epees with Italian-style grips lack the additional ring-like quillions normally seen on the foil version. I've also seen an example of an epee with an Italian-style grip that does feature these. Additionally, I have never seen an example of an Italian-gripped foil that does not have these (i.e. the grip is just a crossbar and ricasso, as with the epee). Does the presence (or absence) of these additional quillions present some advantage or disadvantage (versus the other)?

I assume you mean an Italian foil crossbar would look like this:

_(__|__)_

whereas some epee crossbars that you've seen just look like this:

___|___

Honestly, on my Negrini there's no room for those semi-circular rings on the crossbar, and IMO they're unnecessary, since on a foil that is the actual point of contact to the guard, and on the epee the crossbar attaches directly to the guard.

If you have any question, or if you would like, I can post pictures of my Italian epee.

[GuyW]

Guys, point control is not the same thing as precision.

One is extremly useful in fencing (point control), the other much less so. I've seen fencers with excellent point control who couldn't hit the proverbial golf ball, and I've seen fencers with terrible point control who could hit it.

Get with the program.

Well, for the ignorant - what is point control?

Also, I'm not following the distinction between point control and precision, because in my experience with target shooting (and engineering) - accuracy = hit bullseye dead center....pRecision = Repeatibility (ie, the shots are in a "small" group).

[ysbadadden]

The handle you use is mostly important in establishing what you practice. Without characterizing the other grips, it seems to me that the Italian emphasizes (IN PRACICE) strong parries/ripostes/oppositions. Point control is at least as good as with other grips.

It seems to me that the problem (if any) with an Italian grip is NOT with what you practice within your school or what you learn with your master -- rather, it's what's possible or not with an Italian grip in an unpredictable situation. Here, the Italian grip bound to the wrist is at a dictinct disadvantage, and if not bound to the wrist -- then why not a biomechanicanically superior pistol grip?

I'm speaking as one who learned foil with an Italian grip.

I have an Italian epee from Negrini, and while I'm a foilist that dabbles in epee when asked, here are my observations, take them with a grain of salt:

Center of balance is closer to the guard than an ortho, though not as close as my French grip epee (which is right in front of the guard). Controlling blade actions feel stronger, esp. when using a wrist strap. I have no problem with my point control in terms of any point lagging or needed compensation.



I have not seen Tom's Italian epee guard, so I really can't comment on this part.



I assume you mean an Italian foil crossbar would look like this:

_(__|__)_

whereas some epee crossbars that you've seen just look like this:

___|___

Honestly, on my Negrini there's no room for those semi-circular rings on the crossbar, and IMO they're unnecessary, since on a foil that is the actual point of contact to the guard, and on the epee the crossbar attaches directly to the guard.

If you have any question, or if you would like, I can post pictures of my Italian epee.

[InFerrumVeritas]

The handle you use is mostly important in establishing what you practice. Without characterizing the other grips, it seems to me that the Italian emphasizes (IN PRACICE) strong parries/ripostes/oppositions. Point control is at least as good as with other grips.

It seems to me that the problem (if any) with an Italian grip is NOT with what you practice within your school or what you learn with your master -- rather, it's what's possible or not with an Italian grip in an unpredictable situation. Here, the Italian grip bound to the wrist is at a dictinct disadvantage, and if not bound to the wrist -- then why not a biomechanicanically superior pistol grip?

I'm speaking as one who learned foil with an Italian grip.

Not entirely sure what your purpose of quoting was for, but I agree with everything you just said, although I feel that an Italian bound to the wrist is capable of having stronger parries than an ortho grip, however the lack of options makes this "advantage" rather nulled.

[tdwg83]

Yes the tactics and techniques used with an Italian grip is ill suited to Modern fencing. However, from a classical postion it might possible be completely viable. Italian grips are designed to give you strength and control when dueling. When the concern is for my life I would prefer to keep my opponents blade as far away from my body as possible. This means its more than just "Right of Way" its about maintaining absolute control. This might be where an Italian Grip was useful. Also production methods of the Renniasance era i don't believe would allow for an orthopedic grip.

When approaching this grip, I feel it is important to understand the history and how the old Italian schools of fencing approached the concept of sword play. Using the same concept, it is a useful tool but when the concept is outdated so is the tool.