Questions About Italian Grips in Epee

[Rick Thompson]

veeco wrote:

Guys, point control is not the same thing as precision. ... I've seen fencers with excellent point control who couldn't hit the proverbial golf ball, and I've seen fencers with terrible point control who could hit it.

That was obviously in sabre, right?

[Stormbringer]

Well, for the ignorant - what is point control?

Also, I'm not following the distinction between point control and precision, because in my experience with target shooting (and engineering) - accuracy = hit bullseye dead center....pRecision = Repeatibility (ie, the shots are in a "small" group).

I would also like some clarification of how Veeco defines the distinction.

I had thought that precision would be the analog to accuracy (with "better" precision indicated by the ability to strike a desired location on the target, rather than being "close enough") while point control was the analog to repeatability (with "better" point control indicated by the ability to consistently and repeatably strike the aforementioned location).

I would question the claim that one is so much superior to the other. I thought that point control and precision are two different, but heavily intertwined and equally important, facets of fencing. Of what use is point control without precision, or vice versa?

[LordShout]

I had thought that precision would be the analog to accuracy (with "better" precision indicated by the ability to strike a desired location on the target, rather than being "close enough") while point control was the analog to repeatability (with "better" point control indicated by the ability to consistently and repeatably strike the aforementioned location).

Precision is the groupingness of a set of points, accuracy is how close those points are to where they should be.

Precision therefore means if I execute 100 lunges they'll all hit about the same spot but perhaps this spot is the floor, your knee. Accuracy means that if I exectue 100 lunges they'll tend to hit the right spot.

Point control usually means training Accuracy and precision but the focus tends to be more on accuracy. At least in foil where one tends to train beginners to hit the body not necessarily a certain spot on the body, in epee you train precision much more then in foil.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Precision is the groupingness of a set of points, accuracy is how close those points are to where they should be.

Precision therefore means if I execute 100 lunges they'll all hit about the same spot but perhaps this spot is the floor, your knee. Accuracy means that if I exectue 100 lunges they'll tend to hit the right spot.

Point control usually means training Accuracy and precision but the focus tends to be more on accuracy. At least in foil where one tends to train beginners to hit the body not necessarily a certain spot on the body, in epee you train precision much more then in foil.

So what does this have to do with an Italian grip? I can consistantly hit the same spot (the spot that I intend to hit) with one, which is why I said that point control is the same with both the Italian and ortho, but easier to learn with the ortho. However, because of the stability provided by the Italian, I personally feel that it is easier to learn with an Italian than a French. Again, the smaller finger movements of the French, and even smaller movements of the ortho make the grips more useful in modern fencing.

[Stormbringer]

So what does this have to do with an Italian grip? I can consistantly hit the same spot (the spot that I intend to hit) with one, which is why I said that point control is the same with both the Italian and ortho, but easier to learn with the ortho. However, because of the stability provided by the Italian, I personally feel that it is easier to learn with an Italian than a French. Again, the smaller finger movements of the French, and even smaller movements of the ortho make the grips more useful in modern fencing.

One of the points that came up earlier was the supposed "liveliness" of the point, and how that might affect control of the weapon. This then segued into a short discussion of what was meant by the phrase "point control".

However, a number of posters have pointed out that, in actuality, the difference in point control between the Italian and other grips is negligible (provided, of course, that the fencer using the grip has some idea of how to correctly handle it, which is true of any grip).

[InFerrumVeritas]

One of the points that came up earlier was the supposed "liveliness" of the point, and how that might affect control of the weapon. This then segued into a short discussion of what was meant by the phrase "point control".

However, a number of posters have pointed out that, in actuality, the difference in point control between the Italian and other grips is negligible (provided, of course, that the fencer using the grip has some idea of how to correctly handle it, which is true of any grip).

Right, I understood that, and feel that it is easier to learn on an ortho (even though the final result is the same).

My question pertained to vecco's post.