What to do about improperly failed mask?

[Craig]

Question here for both those who run tournaments and the armorers who staff them -

I received a mask back this morning that was a new mask with "FAIL" written on the bib in permanant marker. I went over the mask and found the area where it looks to have been zealously tested, used my Leon Paul mask punch, and the mask passes. (The punch goes in about halfway down but does not go up to the shoulder.)

If the punch still rests on its conical section, the

MASK IS GOOD
else if the conical portion has completely entered into the mesh and the punch rests on its shoulder, the
MASK IS UNSATISFACTORY

(the notes are really irrelevant to the discussion, hence removed)

I would like the professional opinions of the armorers and tournament organizers about the following:

- How do we ensure proper testing procedures for the basic weapons and safety checks (like mask check)

- Who should be responsible for replacing the now unusable (but perfectly safe) mask? (Or, when it has happened to you or at one of your tournaments, what was the end result.)

From our side, we're replacing the mask for the customer at our expense but we will be talking to the tournament organizers about the incident.

Craig

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Craig

- How do we ensure proper testing procedures for the basic weapons and safety checks (like mask check)

you don't. thats like asking how we ensure that everyone who ever referees in a USFA-sanctioned event is a rated ref. or a competent but unrated ref, even. doesn't happen.

the best that can be done is to correctly educate people as best as possible.

Originally Posted by Craig

- Who should be responsible for replacing the now unusable (but perfectly safe) mask? (Or, when it has happened to you or at one of your tournaments, what was the end result.)

not you, thats for sure. if i were in your shoes, i'd send it back as-is, explaining why it still passes, and have them take it up with the tournament organizers themselves. this might not be the best or most customer-friendly way of doing things, but its a slippery slope; how long would it be before you took back blades that broke "prematurely" or other things of that nature. if it was something truly of the fault of the store, then of course deal with it properly. but this one was not at all the fault of the store.

[yeoldearmourer]

This is not a local problem it's the matter of reading and understanding the rules. I encourage my fencers to know the rules. I have seen to many armourers miss used the punch test. One you never put the mask down on a table to punch it you are adding your weight behind the punch. Again I personal donot like the Leon Punch were you put your thumb over the hole. I have seen local armourer assumed the the punch has to be all the out of the hole that why I used the Unhlmann punch you press it down and if you hear the click you know the mask fail. I seen them wingle the punch as well. I would ask your customer who was the tounement org was and ask them for the cost of the new mask. Since its pretty plain they had someone who didnt know what they were doing.

[lefty_monster]

They're not supposed to wiggle the punch???? That's how our local armourer tests! Punch WIGGLE WIGGLE WIGGLE Remove punch at weird angle. Repeat at 12 different locations on mask.

I guess I need to rent a mask from the salle for tournaments when that guy will be there.

[tkexi991]

Originally Posted by yeoldearmourer

This is not a local problem it's the matter of reading and understanding the rules. I encourage my fencers to know the rules. I have seen to many armourers miss used the punch test. One you never put the mask down on a table to punch it you are adding your weight behind the punch. Again I personal donot like the Leon Punch were you put your thumb over the hole. I have seen local armourer assumed the the punch has to be all the out of the hole that why I used the Unhlmann punch you press it down and if you hear the click you know the mask fail. I seen them wingle the punch as well. I would ask your customer who was the tounement org was and ask them for the cost of the new mask. Since its pretty plain they had someone who didnt know what they were doing.

I tested the mask for the GA High School League tournament. I checked the left eye area, and the punch went through the mesh to the shoulder. On the first try. No wiggling, no extra pressure, no overzealous effort to fail a mask.

I didn't know it was brand new (many of the HS fencers don't compete often so their bibs are mostly clean anyway) but given the failure I'm glad I didn't. The event wasn't a USFA event, but there were USFA coaches running the bout committee who agreed with my accessment.

So no, I disagree that "it's pretty plan that they had someone who didn't know what he was doing."

[KD5MDK]

Is it possible the punch you used had a different shape than Craig's?

[tkexi991]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Is it possible the punch you used had a different shape than Craig's?

Anything's possible. I used a brass punch (Triplette?) and tested 80 some masks and failed three.

Most of the fencers are beginners, and the GA HS League introduces the fencers, their parents, and their pocketbooks to the sport of fencing. Safety is the number one concern, but there is zero incentive on the bout committee's part to force masks or anything else to fail. Which is why when I did fail those three, the bout committee had a look at them as well - and talked to the parents who were upset that XX number of dollars just went down the toilet.

[LeftHanded]

My take on it is that it might have been an old punch. This happens occasionally with shims. They get used so much that they are a hair thinner and end up failing more than they should.

Also, I like the punches with the hole on the top. You press it down until you feel the button and then you know it is good. As long as the cone part doesn't displace the wires or what ever you are golden.

I also think that before condeming a mask like that it would be wise to get a second opinion and have someone else look at it. That way if there is a problem it gets resolved and doesn't come back up for someone else

[rdg]

It seems pretty harsh to me to permanently mark a mask at a non-USFA event, unless there was some notification. Now if you tell me that the HS regulation is the same as USFA, then that is the risk we all take, but even at USFA tournaments, where I know the rules, the Armourers have always notified me if my mask was getting close, and have been pretty slow to mark or destroy a mask.

Sam

[rdg]

I show have added rep to tkexi991 for being an armourer and supporting fencing.

Sam

[tkexi991]

Originally Posted by LeftHanded

My take on it is that it might have been an old punch. This happens occasionally with shims. They get used so much that they are a hair thinner and end up failing more than they should.

Also, I like the punches with the hole on the top. You press it down until you feel the button and then you know it is good. As long as the cone part doesn't displace the wires or what ever you are golden.

I also think that before condeming a mask like that it would be wise to get a second opinion and have someone else look at it. That way if there is a problem it gets resolved and doesn't come back up for someone else

Originally Posted by tkexi991

Which is why when I did fail those three, the bout committee had a look at them as well - and talked to the parents who were upset that XX number of dollars just went down the toilet.

Like I said, I am in no rush to make the parents of a potentially great fencer spend money they don't have to.

[Rockstar44]

Originally Posted by rdg

It seems pretty harsh to me to permanently mark a mask at a non-USFA event, unless there was some notification.

Sam

What difference does it make that it was not a USFA sanctioned event? Masks are tested for SAFETY reasons. Is getting stabbed in the eye in a non-USFA event somehow not as bad as in a USFA event?

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by rdg

It seems pretty harsh to me to permanently mark a mask at a non-USFA event,

Safety....safety....safety!!!

A broken blade does NOT particularly care if it's a friendly bout in salle or the world championships....ask Smirnov. if it fails...it fails.

HOWEVER, the test must be properly administered...it's not that difficult, but some people need to be told HOW to do it.....others need to have the punch taken away and not allowed to every tough it again.

[brtech]

I'm of the opinion that you don't take chances with safety. I'd prefer to deal with a few angry fencers/parents who had to shell out early for a good mask rather than have to explain why we passed a mask we thought may be bad.

It's best if the person testing is well trained, and the punch is in pristine shape. However, if the punch went through, then you don't ever let anyone fence in that mask again, period.

When I fail a mask, I show the fencer the punch protruding through the mesh.

Let's take a bad case. Suppose the person testing is poorly trained and forces the punch through the mesh. The mesh is now bad. It may be the tester's fault, but it's bad; don't fence with that mask any more. We get to argue about who pays, but that the mask can't be used again.

This is the reason why I lean towards punch testing FIE masks. As someone illustrated to me, he didn't want to be explaining to a jury why he didn't spend 15 seconds applying a well known safety check, when he had the training, opportunity, and tools to do it. Whining that it lowers the lifetime of the mask just doesn't cut it in my book. I usually test somewhere on the front. If the mesh feels really solid, one punch is all I do. If I have ANY question that the mesh is not really tight, I do my standard pattern.

I have three kids that fence. I would prefer that their FIE masks get checked with a punch test. I'll buy them a new one if it ever fails. Not a problem.

Unless there is some more info not reported here, I think Craig should be talking to his manufacturer. It wouldn't be hard to mike the diameter of the punch; they do wear.

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Was this a saber mask? This sounds like the standard problem with budget saber masks. The mesh is just too loose. It doesn't happen with foil/epee masks as much because the paint tends to hold the mesh together more. Getting a new punch half-way down really is too much, even if it passes.

[rdg]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Safety....safety....safety!!!

A broken blade does NOT particularly care if it's a friendly bout in salle or the world championships....ask Smirnov. if it fails...it fails.

Failing a punch test means the mask is not fit for USFA competition. It does not mean it is an unsafe mask. These are two different things.

As an example: FIE has determined that clothing under 800 n is not allowed in competition, and neither are non-FIE blades. That does not make 350 n clothing unsafe, and it probably doesn't make non-FIE blades unsafe either, even though I think some are not.

Saying something is unfit for a purpose and something is unsafe is not always the same. In this case it might not be.

So I am saying, if the rules for HS say that the mask should be marked or made unservicable or even if it says the tournamant shall meet USFA standards then I agree with the markings.

Finally, though, I applaud anyone who would take their time to direct or be an armourer for a HS event. And I really wish I hadn't chosen to second guess the armourer's opinion, esp., after reading he got a second opinion. But the cat is out.

Sam

[InFerrumVeritas]

Personally, I agree with the above statements about how safety is the most important thing. If your mask fails, it sucks, but that's life.

The one thing that I think should be noted, though, is that if somone improperly punches the mask and ruins what would have been a good mask, then the organizers of the tournament should do two things: 1) They should provide a mask for the fencer to use in the tournament (withing reason; if the person has an XL head, there isn't much the ourganizers can do). 2) They should pay for a new mask of the same model.

As I said, the above should only apply in the case of an improperly administered test. I know it sucks as a club/organizer, but it shows good will and a willingness to own up to one's mistakes. I'm sure some may disagree with me, but if you break somthing of somones I feel that you should own up to it.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by rdg

Failing a punch test means the mask is not fit for USFA competition. It does not mean it is an unsafe mask. These are two different things.

No...as a matter of fact, they are NOT different. a mask that has failed the punch is unsafe to use eXcept as a wall display....PERIOD, STOP...END OF SUBJECT.

If I fence someone from my salle in a tournament where my mask failed and I had to use another one...then fenced the same guy in salle WITH the mask that failed...how is the safety risk different.

IT IS NOT!!!

I am a certified USFA armorer...I know a LITTLE about how to properly administer the test, and what constitutes an unsafe mask.

I'm sorry if I'm being a hard-ass and potentially saving someone's life....that's part of my job.

[yeoldearmourer]

I punch a FIE mask as fast as any armourer worth is salt would I have failed brand new ones as well. Get rid of that punch from triplttert I see to many of them fail mask that should been past because the punch its is worned down. Leon Paul or Unhlamm . I replace the tip on mine when work every two years.

[whtouche]

Not speaking specifically to the situation being discussed, sometimes I