What to do about improperly failed mask?

[Rockstar44]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

You are wrong. You are wrong. You are wrong.

erooMynohtnA, you are right. You are right. You are right.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Originally Posted by rdg

Failing a punch test means the mask is not fit for USFA competition. It does not mean it is an unsafe mask. These are two different things.

As an example: FIE has determined that clothing under 800 n is not allowed in competition, and neither are non-FIE blades. That does not make 350 n clothing unsafe, and it probably doesn't make non-FIE blades unsafe either, even though I think some are not.

Saying something is unfit for a purpose and something is unsafe is not always the same. In this case it might not be.

So I am saying, if the rules for HS say that the mask should be marked or made unservicable or even if it says the tournamant shall meet USFA standards then I agree with the markings.

Finally, though, I applaud anyone who would take their time to direct or be an armourer for a HS event. And I really wish I hadn't chosen to second guess the armourer's opinion, esp., after reading he got a second opinion. But the cat is out.

Sam

Eh, I don't know about you, but I don't want to fence with a mask that can't stand the small amount of force the punch test administers. It protects my face, and while I may not have the best face, I certainly don't want a nasty scar or worse. If I wanted that, I'd be an idiot and fence schlager (for the saber fencers who actually have been lobotomized).

[academe]

As I read through this thread, I think about all the masks I've seen in the various clubs I've been in. Aside from the fact that most could use a good washing, I'm wondering how many clubs have a routine by which they test the masks used by new fencers or others that don't have their own equipment.

It's a pretty reasonable assumption that many clubs don't test masks at regular intervals and most likely have several that would fail if tested.

[fencerbill]

I don't know whether you are associated with a club. If not find a club where you have a good professional relationship with the owner/manager/head coach. Sell them the mask at cost.

you may be able to obliterate the "failed" with spray paint or white out. It can be covered but you have to take the bib off to use a sewing machine. If it is an FIE mask it may be worth it.

I agree with Tim that I strongly prefer an Uhlmann punch.

The whole situation about what an armorer can do with a mask that doesn't pass a test is a little murky.

Is there a local armorer with NAC experience? Have him check the mask also just to get a second opinion. NAC armorers have been trying to get the USFA to spell it out specifically in tournament documents. But you don't even have that here. Armorers usually lean on the owners and get their agreement to destroy it or at least mark it.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by tkexi991

Anything's possible. I used a brass punch (Triplette?) and tested 80 some masks and failed three.

Failing 3 masks out of 80? That seems high. It is true that HS do buy the least expensive maks.

I have worked through a whole summer championships and not seen 3 failed masks.

[Craig]

I think we're getting a little out of the way here. Part of it is my fault for including what on second reading (and post cup of coffee) is irrelevant info (what was under "notes" as the situation could happen regardless of whether this was a USFA, high school, NCAA meet, or SCA brawl.)

What should happen when a mask is "failed" and marked as failed when subsequent tests show that the mask actually passes?

(This is now irrelevant in my situation as I finally was able to make the mask fail after I admistered the 13th punch test, with 3 second hold, to the exact same "hole" in the mesh as was deformed with the orginal set of tests.)

Bill - Thanks for your input. I agree that it's a murky situation which is why I was looking for some guidance.

Thanks,
Craig

[monitorlizerd]

I have been armoring for about 5 years, certified level three this last summer. That said...
I have failed masks that I know for a fact were less than six months old, when my Uhlmann punch went through the mask. I have faced down the angry parent/fencer when I failed their FIE mask.
I hate failing a mask, as they are so expensive, and the fencer in question may not be able to afford a new one. They may have made a long trip for nothing.
But even less can they afford medical or funeral expenses, and no one looks good with spare holes in their face or head.
If it fails, IT FAILS!! The level of competition DOESN'T MATTER! I failed one at the NACs, and I've failed them at our beginner tournaments. And I will continue to do so when merited.
That said, when we (my fellow armorer, or one of our assistants) fail a mask, we always have it verified by the other armorer.

(Getting down off the soapbox)
Susie in Houston

[fencerbill]

One thing that may not be obvious is that mask punches can get worn to the point that they will cause failures. I have tried to illustrate this with a lousy Windows Paint figure, but I hope it will convey the message.

The lowest section of the punch tip should have straight sides. When it is worn to where the sides are curved as shown in the figure, it should be replaced. The curved sides will penetrate a mask where the original straight sides would not. These worn punch tips can then indicate failure where the same mask would have passed with a new punch.

[HDG]

Roughly speaking, what is the life cycle on testers?

[brtech]

There is a rule on the angle of the "conical" section of the punch.

is able to withstand, without permanent deformation, the introduction into the mesh of a conical instrument, the angle of the surface of the cone being at 4° to the axis and at a pressure of 12 kg.

So, what you are saying is true with regard to the rule.

I don't really understand why you would get a failure, unless the width of the widest part of the mandrel is narrower than it's supposed to be, or the angle is a lot more or a lot less than the rule.

In a new punch, the tip is narrower than the shoulder, and the shoulder is exactly the right width. If you can press down with less than 12KG and get the mesh to open up wide enough for the shoulder to pass through the mesh, then the mask fails. It doesn't seem to me that the angle of the conical part really matters much though; and if it wears, so what? It's still smaller than the mesh opening, and will tend to push the mesh apart, just as a brand new one would.

It can't be a step function; that wouldn't test the force necessary to move the mesh. It seems to me that it could be a lot shallower, or a fair amount steeper, or even somewhat curved instead of straight and still determine if a broken blade can penetrate.

Maybe I'm missing something

[Robert Smith]

It would be nice if someone could post concise instructions on how to properly punch test masks, for those of us who have no formal armoury training. It's easy enough to ask someone who's doing the job if you're at a tournament, but club armourers aren't necessarily competitive fencers, so may not have the opportunity to see a punch test administered. I assume the technique is similar for all, and that most of it is common sense, but there are things in this thread that I wouldn't have thought of for myself - don't rest the mask on a table (why?), hold for 3 seconds (why?). Would be nice if the things came with basic instructions, but having something available here would be a good alternative.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by HDG

Roughly speaking, what is the life cycle on testers?

7,438 tests, YMMV.

[fencerbill]

You'll notice they specified an angle on the tester, not the width of the tip and the width above the taper. If you have two testers with the same diameter at tip and above the taper, the one with a longer taper, or angles less than the defined 4 degrees, will be more likely to penetrate the same mesh. The tester worn to where it has a curve will also be more likely to penetrate than a new tester. Alternatively, the tester with the curved tip will penetrate the same mask with less applied force.

[Craig]

Robert - I just held for 3 seconds to "make sure" and add additional stress since I was in "try to make it fail" mode at that point.

I'm pretty sure I've never had an armorer at a NAC or other large event hold the punch for multiple seconds - it's just punch it until the plunger hits my thumb (LP tester) and release.

Craig

[brtech]

Originally Posted by Robert Smith

It would be nice if someone could post concise instructions on how to properly punch test masks, for those of us who have no formal armoury training. It's easy enough to ask someone who's doing the job if you're at a tournament, but club armourers aren't necessarily competitive fencers, so may not have the opportunity to see a punch test administered. I assume the technique is similar for all, and that most of it is common sense, but there are things in this thread that I wouldn't have thought of for myself - don't rest the mask on a table (why?), hold for 3 seconds (why?). Would be nice if the things came with basic instructions, but having something available here would be a good alternative.

I've suggested that instead of trying to figure it out from instructions, you ask any good armorer to show you, and watch you do it. There is no really good way to describe in words how it's done, and I think we'd disagree if we tried. Its the kind of thing that is hard to describe, but easy to demonstrate, and I really would like to have an experienced person check that the student is doing it correctly rather than rely on "book learning".

FWIW, I don't believe what yeoldarmorer says about not doing the test on a table. The spring in the punch controls the force, and you can do it with a drill press if you set it up correctly. If the punch bottoms out and you continue to press with more force than it took to overcome the spring, then you can damage the mask. When some weaker people do the test, they need to arrange some sort of mechanical advantage compared to the way most of us test (cradling the mask with one arm, pressing on the tester with the other). That's okay. The speed doesn't matter. What matters is that you have to hold the tester vertical to the mesh surface, press straight in, don't wiggle, until the punch bottoms out (you feel the plunger on the kind being discussed, you feel the spring bottom out on the Uhlmann style). Holding it probably doesn't matter; if it's going to go through, it will go through right away. Additional force can damage a good mask.

[yeoldearmourer]

Well when you been around as long I have you can by setting in on the table add your weight to punch and cause it to go though a mask. Seen it happen then once at local competince. I have tested over 100 mask in one weekend with not failiuer. Like i said check your equipement before hand to make sure every thing is working. I have seen to much failed by armourers whose stuff was not up to par.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Originally Posted by Craig

I think we're getting a little out of the way here. Part of it is my fault for including what on second reading (and post cup of coffee) is irrelevant info (what was under "notes" as the situation could happen regardless of whether this was a USFA, high school, NCAA meet, or SCA brawl.)

What should happen when a mask is "failed" and marked as failed when subsequent tests show that the mask actually passes?

(This is now irrelevant in my situation as I finally was able to make the mask fail after I admistered the 13th punch test, with 3 second hold, to the exact same "hole" in the mesh as was deformed with the orginal set of tests.)

Bill - Thanks for your input. I agree that it's a murky situation which is why I was looking for some guidance.

Thanks,
Craig

The organization running the competition should pay for the mask, and provide one for the fencer to use (if possible).

[Purple Fencer]

If all goes well tomorrow, I will have a video explaining and demonstrating the test procedure on my website....including what constitutes a failure.