High School fencing rules

[mfencer2008]

Foil Fencing
I am extremely confused with high school rules.
I am not allowed to cross step, because it is a fleche.
However, am I allowed to invert my entire body and swing my feet in one action to give my opponent an about-face for a parry repost prime infighting action?
I am a righty.
I'm not exactly "crossing" my feet, because both are facing the same place, towards the right side while the left foot swings forwards without crossing the front of my right foot, because the right foot turns a 90 degrees to face right
.
Do the rules mean that I cannot ever place my back foot in front of the other?
But does that mean my "front" foot is the leading foot, or the one closer to the opponent?

What if I trip, falling back backwards and accidentally cross my legs to remain stable, then returning to en guard?

[erooMynohtnA]

Specify the weapon. Specify the region. Certain areas may have bylaws.

Saber fencers are not allowed to cross their feet in a forward motion. Going backwards, it's fine. Your explanation of what you're doing is too complicated for me to tell if what you're doing is illegal or not, but if you're getting carded, stop doing it.

Again, I don't know what you're describing with the infighting situation, but it's probably ok if nobody is getting carded.

High school directors can be pretty terrible (I have been one, I wasn't that great). If you get a few bad calls from one director, feel free to ignore it. However, if you're getting that same "wrong" call from several directors, guess who's probably wrong.

[AndrewH]

I ref NJ high school events occasionally. Fleching is the action that is prohibited, i.e. crossing your feet during an offensive action. Fleching is prohibited in sabre anyway, but NJHS adds that the action is illegal if the fencer crosses their feet at any time in order to complete the action.

Example (sabre): A fencer executes a flunge, touches their opponent, then crosses their feet.
USFA: legal action, touch for the correct attack
NJHS: illegal action, touch annulled, yellow card, any valid counterattack scores a touch

Crossing your feet backwards is always legal. Reversing your shoulders to infight falls under this category.

[LeftHanded]

In a fleche you have to cross your feet to catch your self unless you are doing something like a saber fleche wear you just stretch your body out.

Yeah, high school directors can make some pretty bad calls. In foil there isn't any penalty for a cross over, at least not in the USFA rules. As far as high school I don't know. If they are going my regualr USFA rules tell the director to stuff it. JK. Some judges are ignorant and think because they are the ref they can run the bout however they want and make a bunch of worthless calls. It isn't limited to HS but it has happend at Sectionals and Nationals before.

[KD5MDK]

You're overlooking that he's in New Jersey and is specific about discussing High School rules (there). New Jersey is well known around here for this unusual rule.

[ToucheVerte]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Crossing your feet backwards is always legal. Reversing your shoulders to infight falls under this category.

What the heck does this mean? It sounds like some sort of a contortionist trick at a circus. Is this what they do in New Jersey?

[stu]

From the original description it's hard to tell, but the action in question seems almost more in danger of incurring penalties for turning your back on the opponent than for crossing.

I have a horrible feeling that the original post is talking about some sort of move where you effectively jump in place from a right foot forward stance to a left foot forward stance. I could be completely wrong of course. If that is what they do mean, and I can't see why anyone would want to do so in sabre, then my inclination would be to say that even though you're bringing the front foot back, you're also bringing the back foot forward, and should be penalised.

Frankly, if you're not fencing sabre, do what you like. If you are, how on earth do you have time to do something so utterly complicated?

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by ToucheVerte

What the heck does this mean? It sounds like some sort of a contortionist trick at a circus. Is this what they do in New Jersey?

Are you really telling me you don't cross over backwards?

And for foil, if the fencers start to pass each other often they will reverse shoulders and continue to infight. It's not uncommon at all.

[ToucheVerte]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Are you really telling me you don't cross over backwards?

My version of the Kama Sutra must be outdated. Have you tried the Swedish Helicopter?

[Snowbabe]

In NJ HS, there is no fleching allowed in any weapon. Someone stated that this is an usual rule. Not if you are here. First, there are many coaches that cannot teach it properly and Second, there are many schools where the dual meets take place that there is simply not room for it. This past weekend there were two huge tournaments that fleching would be quite dangerous. I also have spoken to several college coaches that state that the fencers that they get from NJ have better footwork because they can't fleche.

[Welted 24/7]

That's not an NJ-specific thing, actually. My high school in Queens, NY was part of an athletic league that didn't let us fleche either. Of course, we weren't allowed to do a lot of things...like fence sabre or epee.

[GypsyScot]

Oh the joys of NJHS fencing and inept refs.
In HS I never retreated I always fleched backwards.

I am the assistant coach at a rather prestigious prep school in NJ, and nothings changed in the last ten years, whats legal and illegal is never consistent, it all depends on the ref.

Oh and that big tournament this past weekend (sorry I wanna vent). There was one ref who didn't have a score keeper, kept forgetting the score and called bout at 14-12, when the opposing (losing) fencer scored a touch and after he'd been corrected several times by both coaches during the bout about his score he would not listen to any protest from either side. Oi!

[clonardo]

We got an epeeist from a New Jersey high school, who fenced for four years without being allowed to fleche.

Needless to say, in college- it's not going well for her.

edit- the fact that she's 4'10" and lazy doesn't help. One of the best female epeeists I've known is 5'1", and mows girls a full foot taller down with her fleche.

[seak]

Yeah sorry, having coached a few kids who came out of the NJ high school fencing system, I don't think there footworks been improved by not being allowed to cross-over, and the fact that some of them have a mental block when it comes to fleches is really not useful (using and defending).

[SFfencer]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

That's not an NJ-specific thing, actually. My high school in Queens, NY was part of an athletic league that didn't let us fleche either. Of course, we weren't allowed to do a lot of things...like fence sabre or epee.

Yeah, the high school league here in San Francisco also has only foil, and does not allow crossing over forwards.

[rdg]

Originally Posted by SFfencer

Yeah, the high school league here in San Francisco also has only foil, and does not allow crossing over forwards.

As I recall, you coach there. What do you teach them about the fleche? Are they advanced enough to have even reached that point in your opinion?

BTW not being able to fleche in HS doesn't seem to affected your fleche?

Sam

[SFfencer]

Originally Posted by rdg

As I recall, you coach there. What do you teach them about the fleche?

Nothing - Don't do it.
like in Sabre, crossing-over forwards is a Group 1 card in the HS league.

This makes some of them fence like it's Sabre,
they both advance, lunge from en guarde, "halt, simultaneous, no touch."

Are they advanced enough to have even reached that point in your opinion?

Maybe some of the Juniors/Seniors,
younger, if they are taking lessons at a club.

Most of them don't fence in USFA tournaments. (yet?)

BTW not being able to fleche in HS doesn't seem to affected your fleche?

I was home-schooled, so I didn't fence in HS.

[FoilBlender]

Here in San Francisco, we can't fleche or cross-step forward. However, crossing backwards is allowed. (Foil)

[KD5MDK]

I'm not familiar with anywhere where crossing backwards isn't allowed.

[mrbiggs]

In Connecticut we use the normal rules, fleching is OK.

There's only some epee and almost no sabre, though.