ROW, How do you determine, take, earn, or steal ROW

[flyingfencer]

This is a simple question for you foil and sabre fencers and referees.

Please indicate whether you are foil or sabre, fencer, referee, or both.

For fencers give a couple of examples of how you gain Right of Way and how you know you have ROW in your particular weapon.

Do you use Point in Line? If you believe you've correctly executed a PIL, does the referee give it to you or is it too low a percentage proposition? Do you attack and try to draw a counter-attack, finishing for the touch? Do you prefer to attack in prep? Do you attack off of your opponent's beat?

Now, give an example of where you think it's difficult to determine ROW.

For a referee give a couple of examples of actions and how you determine ROW.

For a referee give an example of an action that is particularly difficult to determine ROW.

[bigdawg2121]

This should be fun... *pops popcorn*

[dekko]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

This should be fun... *pops popcorn*

I agree..........opening the cooler of beer to share with dawg'spopcorn.........

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

This is a simple question for you foil and sabre fencers and referees.

Please indicate whether you are foil or sabre, fencer, referee, or both.

Is that all, what a simple question. I ref foil.

For fencers give a couple of examples of how you gain Right of Way and how you know you have ROW in your particular weapon.

I extend my arm and move forward.

Do you use Point in Line? If you believe you've correctly executed a PIL, does the referee give it to you or is it too low a percentage proposition? Do you attack and try to draw a counter-attack, finishing for the touch? Do you prefer to attack in prep? Do you attack off of your opponent's beat?

Yeah, I do all that stuff, except attacking off an opponent's beat, whatever that means.

Now, give an example of where you think it's difficult to determine ROW.

Women's foil.

For a referee give a couple of examples of actions and how you determine ROW.

A establishes a PiL, several seconds pass, B attacks, A and B hit with no blade contact. I determine RoW for B because a PiL is really a counter attack and never gets the touch no matter what.

For a referee give an example of an action that is particularly difficult to determine ROW.

When two people throw out a PiL at the same time, I have trouble deciding who really had the PiL and how to give the other person the touch.

Edit: Don't take any of that seriously. I've found my sarcasm doesn't translate well into text. But feel free to argue and I'll pretend I'm serious.

[Katman]

Please indicate whether you are foil or sabre, fencer, referee, or both:

I'm a foil fencer.

For fencers give a couple of examples of how you gain Right of Way and how you know you have ROW in your particular weapon.

I begin my attack before the other person. Bam, right of way. If they beat me to it, I make them stop or I parry and riposte.

Do you use Point in Line? If you believe you've correctly executed a PIL, does the referee give it to you or is it too low a percentage proposition? Do you attack and try to draw a counter-attack, finishing for the touch? Do you prefer to attack in prep? Do you attack off of your opponent's beat?

Refs are pretty strict about point in line because otherwise every remiser or counterattacker would argue for it until everyone was blue in the face. I typically just use it to buy time, set up a different action or (occasionally) actually score with it.

Now, give an example of where you think it's difficult to determine ROW.

It's impossible to determine right of way in epee.

For a referee give a couple of examples of actions and how you determine ROW.

Fencer X skips foward while waving his tip at the ceiling and threatening his opponent's valid target area with his elbow. Fencer Y closes her eyes, plants her feet and powers up for her "attack into preparation" by extending her arm. Fencer X sees this coming and finishes to Fencer Y's shoulder. Fencer Y nails Fencer X. Both arrive valid.

I give this one to Fencer Y, because she's my girlfriend, and I want to watch Fencer X have a heart attack.

For a referee give an example of an action that is particularly difficult to determine ROW.

Fencer X starts a beat. Fencer Y sees that happening and beats Fencer X's blade. Fencer X's beat is weak sauce, while Fencer Y totally looked like they meant to do it. Fencer X is a new fencer with an expensive national coach breathing down your neck. Fencer Y is a well-known, competent fencer and also your boyfriend and the FOC that's observing you's son.

Both arrive. Beat attack? Parry riposte? Beat/counter beat, thus making it beat attack for Fencer X? What do you think?

Seriously though, why did you ask all that? I've seen specific ROW questions before (and have posted them myself), but this is the first time I've seen a post where someone asked for almost all of it at once.

Edit: erooMynohtnA beat me to being a jerk.

[peet]

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[catwood1]

This is a simple question for you foil and sabre fencers and referees.



Il try making an actual reply. I am a referee who fences foil on a good day, and stands there waving a foil on a bad day. I also do some epee.


Do you use Point in Line? If you believe you've correctly executed a PIL, does the referee give it to you or is it too low a percentage proposition? Do you attack and try to draw a counter-attack, finishing for the touch? Do you prefer to attack in prep? Do you attack off of your opponent's beat?

I like the big drawn out slow compound attack. Changing lines, drawing a counter attack, then finishing. If a referee calls that as a prep, I go for mainly ripostes and 1 lights.


For a referee give a couple of examples of actions and how you determine ROW.

Here is what I am looking for when I ref foil:

1: Who starts the action?
2: Does he do anything to lose right of way? (i.e. stop, get parried, miss, etc.)
3: Does his initial attack hit?
4: How does the other guy respond? (counter attack? Parry? stand there and do nothing)
5: Did anyone break the rules? If so, how should I apply said rules?


For a referee give an example of an action that is particularly difficult to determine ROW.

Personally, I have some problems seeing when one fencer goes to beat, and the other disengages and they both hit. It should be a search, but on my strip sometimes it magically transforms into an attack. (Im workin on that... :-/)

[Neinteen]

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Please indicate whether you are foil or sabre, fencer, referee, or both.

Foil.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

For fencers give a couple of examples of how you gain Right of Way and how you know you have ROW in your particular weapon.

Beat, Parry, Advancing, arm extension, attacking in general...

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Do you use Point in Line? If you believe you've correctly executed a PIL, does the referee give it to you or is it too low a percentage proposition?

Yeah, quite often and almost always get it unless I mess it up or get owned. 90% of the time you'll get it if you did it correctly.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Do you attack and try to draw a counter-attack, finishing for the touch? Do you prefer to attack in prep? Do you attack off of your opponent's beat?

Usually the first, feint diengage or attack, then counter riposte or something of the like. Attacking in prep usually ends up with iffy calls and I wouldn't attack off a beat since that's their beat attack...

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Now, give an example of where you think it's difficult to determine ROW.

Attack in preps, like when exactly did the attack start, stop then continue etc.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

For a referee give a couple of examples of actions and how you determine ROW.

Who is initiating the attack. ie advancing lunging, extending arm -PIL-, etc. Who's taking the parry and who's reacting vs initiating actions.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

For a referee give an example of an action that is particularly difficult to determine ROW.

I direct JV bouts foil and epee bouts lol, but isn't this the same question as in above? As an observer thats trying to understand the actions though, ALOT of attacks either fall short or aren't continued by the fencer and then they pause.. and then they continue and 2 lights go off. Is it a continuation of attack, a counter attack, a remise, etc and sometimes it's hard to say with their actions.

[Neinteen]

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

1: Who starts the action?
2: Does he do anything to lose right of way? (i.e. stop, get parried, miss, etc.)
3: Does his initial attack hit?
4: How does the other guy respond? (counter attack? Parry? stand there and do nothing)
5: Did anyone break the rules? If so, how should I apply said rules?

Nice info. Nice location. George Mason. US1 Days, some framer. Connecticut Great Compromise? or was that Sherman? lol. NJ where do you direct?

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by Neinteen

Yeah, quite often and almost always get it unless I mess it up or get owned. 90% of the time you'll get it if you did it correctly.

You are totally wrong.

[Neinteen]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

You are totally wrong.

How? Ideally:

Fencer A and B start a bout. Fencer A immediately puts up a point in line. Fencer B starts advancing goes to parryyy... fencer A diesengages and lunges.

boom?

[aamct2]

Originally Posted by Neinteen

How? Ideally:

Fencer A and B start a bout. Fencer A immediately puts up a point in line. Fencer B starts advancing goes to parryyy... fencer A diesengages and lunges.

boom?

Fencer B fakes a beat, Fencer A disengages when Fencer B didn't make blade contact, Fencer A is now forced to attack to maintain ROW.

Alternatively, Fencer B beats but doesn't attack and expects Fencer A's disengage-attack, Fencer B then parries Fencer A's attack or counter-disengages or does any number of other things.

PiL works well against people who haven't fenced against it.

[Neinteen]

Yeah it's just a what works against someone kind of thing like infighting or flicks. But I think Point in line is more intimidating like if you see someone with a point in line, you have to back off and think about things more than you usually would or at least I do lol.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by Neinteen

How? Ideally:

Fencer A and B start a bout. Fencer A immediately puts up a point in line. Fencer B starts advancing goes to parryyy... fencer A diesengages and lunges.

boom?

The Point in Line is one of my favorite things ever. Let's analyze this phrase to see how I have personally seen this exact call messed up:

Matters of fact that a referee can (and will) mess up:
1. The was no search, you broke your line by disengaging (referee didn't see the beat)
2. Your line was not established in time and is a counterattack or simultaneous attack (referee wasn't watching your arm)
3. The beat landed successfully (referee heard someone else's beat)
Interpretations of rule that a referee can (and will) mess up:
4. You lunged your line, thus invalidating it by attacking.
5. You're not allowed to move a line (like derobing).
6. You didn't establish the line one full tempo ahead of the fencing, so it's invalid.

I'm sure there are other ways to mess it up as well.

[Cookeit]

Originally Posted by Neinteen

Yeah it's just a what works against someone kind of thing like infighting or flicks. But I think Point in line is more intimidating like if you see someone with a point in line, you have to back off and think about things more than you usually would or at least I do lol.

Ha.
I love when people draw point in lines on me, especially a high one.

It's like inviting me to attack.
I can just go in and know that I have a way longer reach then them,
and while it would have been my counterattack, they don't reach me so it doesn't matter.

One light, my touch.

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by Neinteen

Nice info. Nice location. George Mason. US1 Days, some framer. Connecticut Great Compromise? or was that Sherman? lol. NJ where do you direct?

When Im in NJ (winter break / summer break) I ref everywhere...

Basically, anyplace where there is fencing, and that will pay me, I will go and ref there.

Imagine Jay Choy only a far worse referee, and a less cool guy, and thats me Just kiddin, im not THAT dedicated to reffing. Im on my way though...

[KD5MDK]

Your hand signals aren't as good either.

[ViewtifulMisho]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

The Point in Line is one of my favorite things ever. Let's analyze this phrase to see how I have personally seen this exact call messed up:

Matters of fact that a referee can (and will) mess up:
1. The was no search, you broke your line by disengaging (referee didn't see the beat)
2. Your line was not established in time and is a counterattack or simultaneous attack (referee wasn't watching your arm)
3. The beat landed successfully (referee heard someone else's beat)
Interpretations of rule that a referee can (and will) mess up:
4. You lunged your line, thus invalidating it by attacking.
5. You're not allowed to move a line (like derobing).
6. You didn't establish the line one full tempo ahead of the fencing, so i