Hi All,
For several years, I have watched with envy fencing clubs going up around the country. I finally found a good enough situation where I can't wait any more. This is the first installment of pictures and descriptions that show the progress of an empty space into a salle that any fencer would be proud to call home.
I am moving my business (my day job) to this facility and also starting a new fencing club in the same premises. One of the people whose kids take lessons from me is a developer in the city of Milwaukee. Over the past two years, he and I have gone to numerous buildings that he owns looking for the right combination of features, size, layout, price, neighborhood, etc.
While the space is by no means free, it is a really good deal. I have also attached the latest internal diagram showing strip layout etc. All comments and advice will be appreciated. I have the next two months to "build-out" the inside before I have to start paying rent. I have promises of help from many of the good people in the Wisconsin Division helping to do all of the "grunt" work.
The first image (crane bay 1.jpg) shows the connected empty building. The owner says it will be vacant until 2010 and is willing to let us use it for tournaments larger than can be held in the salle. With an open, well lit space like this, (200' X 75') we could hold quite a large competition.
I am hoping to have some great fencing/social event this summer in conjunction with "Summerfest" which happens to be the largest yearly music festival in the world. Stay tuned.
Wish me luck.
Best Regards,
Joe Biebel
I'm a foil fencer, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.
The biggest issue I can see is that it's so very far from my house.
Ye Gods man! What a find!
The space itself looks stellar. You'll have the usual problems of location and getting people out to fence there (and you may have some issues with perceived safety after dark), but nothing critical. I assume you're going to be laying down some proper flooring?
The biggest issue I can see is that it's so very far from my house.
1. Ye Gods man! What a find!
2. The space itself looks stellar. You'll have the usual problems of location and getting people out to fence there (and you may have some issues with perceived safety after dark), but nothing critical.
3. I assume you're going to be laying down some proper flooring?
4. Congrats on your first salle!
James.
1. Thanks, I think so too.
2. The space is in downtown Milwaukee, so it is "centrally located".
It is well lit, in an area that has gone from blighted to "hip". It is surrounded by old warehouses that have been transformed into expensive, trendy condominiums. The neighborhood has museums, great restaurants, schools, and bars. It is one block from the river and about six blocks from the lakefront and the famous "Summerfest" grounds. From May through October there is one musical or ethnic festival after another there.
The rest of the buildings in my area are being transformed into theaters, apartments, offices etc. Industry is moving out, yuppies are moving in.
3. Yes, I even built a prototype floor based on many of the ideas and recomendations of people on this forum. It will be extraordinary to fence on.
The bungee system for reels is of my own design and is the by far the best I have seen. The first lighting modules went in today to test the indirect lighting system and they are great. The fourteen foot ceiling and 30 foot spans between pillar rows are ideal for a fencing salle.
4. I hope it will be the first of several salles, thanks.
Initially, this club will be be "manned" by volunteers. I hope that, in the not to distant future, the salle will be "in the black" and able to acquire some talented professional help.
I'm a foil fencer, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.
A couple of comments based on your layout (and I realize there may be much that isn't shown there so take everything with a grain of salt):
It looks like strips 1 and 2 will be awfully close to the furnaces along that wall. Would it make more sense to shift everything a foot or two further out or would that put strips 3 and 4 too close to the pillars?
It appears that you are allowing 60 inches (1.5 meters) runoff at each of the strip, but with a solid wall at one end and the runoff from another strip at the other end, wouldn't it be better to butt the runoff areas from the two strips up against on another (possibly even overlap them a little) and allow more runoff at the ends of the strips where there is a hard obstruction?
A couple of comments based on your layout (and I realize there may be much that isn't shown there so take everything with a grain of salt):
It looks like strips 1 and 2 will be awfully close to the furnaces along that wall. Would it make more sense to shift everything a foot or two further out or would that put strips 3 and 4 too close to the pillars?
It appears that you are allowing 60 inches (1.5 meters) runoff at each of the strip, but with a solid wall at one end and the runoff from another strip at the other end, wouldn't it be better to butt the runoff areas from the two strips up against on another (possibly even overlap them a little) and allow more runoff at the ends of the strips where there is a hard obstruction?
The "plan" view shows the furnaces approximate position as viewed from above. What the drawing does not show is that they are ceiling mounted and the "bottom" of the furnaces will will be 11'-6" from the floor. This puts them out of reach vertically.
The runoff of 60" is accurate. We are trying to keep regulation length and width strips for tournament play. We have a small space between the strips (lengthwise) for the floor to ceiling mounted vertical bungee reeless system we intent to employ. I wish the salle length were 6' longer, but it will have to do. It seems unlikely that anyone would need much more room, or that a retreating fencer could be injured by the lack of runoff beyond 60". Just in case though, the walls behind the strips and all of the column supports will be well pardded. The pads on the column supports will double as "targets" for blade drills and precision practice.
Since the salle is virtual on Autocad, I will play the the strip arrangement and see if there is something that can be done to improve the "runoffs". One of the last jobs that will be done is to paint the striping onto the wood floor. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Last edited by Joe biebel; 01-04-2008 at 09:32 AM.
Reason: new thought
I'm a foil fencer, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.
Good to hear that the furnaces won't be a problem.
Regarding the run-off areas, I agree that five feet is probably sufficient to minimize the risk of a retreating fencer fencer injuring himself - it's the attacker who chooses to fleche against that fencer that I'm more worried about.
Moving the strips closer to one another in the middle would help but right now it sounds like the vertical bungee systems might be in the way. Based on earlier discussion I'm guessing that your vertical bungee system will involve a 15-ft high vertical trunk at each end of the strip. If there were sufficient height I would suggest mounting the entire thing in the overhead but being as you also presumably want to keep the exit points for your vertical bungee systems below knee level this probably isn't an option. Have you considered locating the vertical trunks and exit points off to one side of the run-off area?
Good to hear that the furnaces won't be a problem.
Regarding the run-off areas, I agree that five feet is probably sufficient to minimize the risk of a retreating fencer fencer injuring himself - it's the attacker who chooses to fleche against that fencer that I'm more worried about.
Moving the strips closer to one another in the middle would help but right now it sounds like the vertical bungee systems might be in the way. Based on earlier discussion I'm guessing that your vertical bungee system will involve a 15-ft high vertical trunk at each end of the strip. If there were sufficient height I would suggest mounting the entire thing in the overhead but being as you also presumably want to keep the exit points for your vertical bungee systems below knee level this probably isn't an option. Have you considered locating the vertical trunks and exit points off to one side of the run-off area?
Right after my last post, it occurred to me (because of your concern) that the vertical bungee systems (VBS) could be put along the wall or between the columns on the four "tournament strips" thereby freeing up some space and having a shared runoff where the strips converge. Hmmmm, great minds do think alike.
I also thought of adding sharp steel spikes at the ends of the strips to disuade flesching past the end of the strip. It would just be too hard to sell memberships to prospective parents though.
Last edited by Joe biebel; 01-04-2008 at 04:42 PM.
Reason: fun
I'm a foil fencer, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.
Hi Joe,
And congratulations on finding the space. That's a big battle all on it's own. I'm supposing that in addition to just wanting to exercise bragging rights you were entertaining ideas. Now as far as I can see, you haven't mentioned what kind of floor you expect to have. Looking at the photos it appears you have a very nice flat concrete floor. May I suggest wood? I just came back from looking at another club's facilities and they used the composite rubber mat flooring. Which is Ok, though my preference is to have it springier. But cost wise I do believe that a much better floor can be made with 2x4's covered by 3/4" tongue and groove OSB. And I mean better in terms of feel. Of course that's an extremely subjective thing. In terms of cost I found that using volunteer labor we could put in a 2000 sq ft floor for a little under USD$2000. So about $1.00/sq ft. That does not include paint to paint the floor.
Anyway as I said that subject was in the back of my head as I just returned from a BayCup meeting and floors were one topic of conversation.
Hi Joe,
And congratulations on finding the space. That's a big battle all on it's own. I'm supposing that in addition to just wanting to exercise bragging rights you were entertaining ideas. Now as far as I can see, you haven't mentioned what kind of floor you expect to have. Looking at the photos it appears you have a very nice flat concrete floor. May I suggest wood? I just came back from looking at another club's facilities and they used the composite rubber mat flooring. Which is Ok, though my preference is to have it springier. But cost wise I do believe that a much better floor can be made with 2x4's covered by 3/4" tongue and groove OSB. And I mean better in terms of feel. Of course that's an extremely subjective thing. In terms of cost I found that using volunteer labor we could put in a 2000 sq ft floor for a little under USD$2000. So about $1.00/sq ft. That does not include paint to paint the floor.
Anyway as I said that subject was in the back of my head as I just returned from a BayCup meeting and floors were one topic of conversation.
Best wishes and hope to try it out some day.
J.
The floor will be wood, very similar to what you describe.
I'm a foil fencer, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.
Since you are installing bungee reels in columns, will you also be installing overhead scoreboxes? Or will you set those up each time you fence?
I look forward to fencing at your first competition!
The machines, will be wall mounted a full four feet from the edge of the strips, above the fencers heads and "shielded." I am going to use the 2 "Eigertek" machines I have, for the practice strips and hope to be one of the first clubs to use computers (check out this link Software Scoring Machine) for scoring and running tournaments.
I'm a foil fencer, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.
Will you be using computer monitors that are glare resistant and have wide viewing angles then?
Any idea what sort of computer system you will use? One computer per strip? A central bank of computers? Server+workstations (bowling alley style)? A single computer controlling everything?
Will you be using computer monitors that are glare resistant and have wide viewing angles then?
Any idea what sort of computer system you will use? One computer per strip? A central bank of computers? Server+workstations (bowling alley style)? A single computer controlling everything?
If I go with a single lcd monitor per strip, It would need to be a "wide angle viewable" screen. I also thought that if I could find a deal similar to the black Friday deal I got ($100.00 each for 17" lcd monitors) I could put 2 per strip, in the center, in an inverted "V" to dramatically improve viewabilitiy even at extreme angles. I tried my 22" from a reasonable distance and angle (at the distance a referee would stand at) and the angle and viewability was fine even near the end of the strips. I might also mount CRT monitors, up high and shielded, that would certainly be quite bright, cheap and would have probably better viewing angles.
Since the whole computer and screen thing is in it's infancy, I don't know what will work best yet.
Right now I'm looking to use 1 computer per strip, with the possibility of networking them later depending on the software developement that ocurs by our beloved fnet geeks. I'm an ideas guy, not a details guy. A technology user as opposed to a designer. The thing that appeals to me most about a computer scoring system, is that once the basic system is proven solid, accurate and dependable, the sky is the limit as far as intergration with scoring and tournament running.
I'm a foil fencer, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.
Would it be possible to buy old mattresses (Red Cross?) or having gymnastics mats to have standing along the walls?
Congratulations!
Have a nice time!
Peter Gustafsson
Hmmm, Thank you Peter, well that beats my idea of putting a billboard at the ends of the strips with an ad for a local shyster (sp?) law firm. Actually, the safety issue, with a little help and prodding from "SJCFU#2" earlier in this thread has been solved. we will be closer to 8' of runoff at each end of the strips. More than is even required by FIE standards. Even so, the walls will be padded.
I'm a foil fencer, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.
The machines, will be wall mounted a full four feet from the edge of the strips, above the fencers heads and "shielded." I am going to use the 2 "Eigertek" machines I have, for the practice strips and hope to be one of the first clubs to use computers (check out this link Software Scoring Machine) for scoring and running tournaments.
I like the idea of mounting the scoring machines back away from the strips and up above the fencers' heads - just take care not to mount them so high as to make it difficult to reach the weapon selector switch (either that or contact Dieter - maybe he could help you modify the Eigerteks to include a remote weapon selector switch).
I'm not so certain about plans to use software-based scoring machines for tournaments. In principle it's a great idea but it sounds like they still has a ways to go before being ready for tournament use (especially for saber). You may want to have a back-up plan in case these problems haven't been solved by the time you open.
I like the idea of mounting the scoring machines back away from the strips and up above the fencers' heads - just take care not to mount them so high as to make it difficult to reach the weapon selector switch (either that or contact Dieter - maybe he could help you modify the Eigerteks to include a remote weapon selector switch).
I'm not so certain about plans to use software-based scoring machines for tournaments. In principle it's a great idea but it sounds like they still has a ways to go before being ready for tournament use (especially for saber). You may want to have a back-up plan in case these problems haven't been solved by the time you open.
All good advice. As far as tournament play is concerned, we would have to be convinced that the computer system was at least as good and accurate as manufactured scoring machines, before we would use them for sanctioned events. I am still expecting to use Division equipment for tournament use, until the computers are proven.
Also, feedback from entrepreneurs, such as myself, can help to get computer systems as the new and hopefully better standard for club and tournament scoring systems.
Once computers are the standard, the FIE can change the timings weekly, if they like. A simple download would be the upgrade.
I'm a foil fencer, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.
Originally Posted by jBirch 
A simple download would be the upgrade. 