Canadian fencers

[seltzerwater]

Do Canadian fencers fall under the same rules as USFA ? In competitions I sometimes notice an asterisk ( *) by their name. If they do not align themselves with the USFA then what are the differences - if any?

[fencerbill]

Do Canadian fencers fall under the same rules as USFA ? In competitions I sometimes notice an asterisk ( *) by their name. If they do not align themselves with the USFA then what are the differences - if any?

You may have to contact the National office for a perfect clarification of what the asterisk means.

I have never seen a fencer who was born in the US and has only US citizenship listed with an asterisk.

There are several other types of nationality that may or may not be listed with asterisk.

Fencers with dual citizenship, US and other, have been listed with asterisks if they have recently represented another country in international fencing competition. They are not eligible to participate in US national championships or to represent the US internationally without waiting 3 years.

Fencers with dual US/other citizenship who have not represented their other nationality internationally within 3 years would not be listed with an asterisk. They can participate in US national championships and can represent the US internationally.

So fencers with dual citizenship will/will not be listed with an asterisk depending on whether they have recently (3 years) represented their other citizenship internationally.

Fencers who are permanent residents of the US can participate in the US national championships if they have not represented another country internationally within 3 years. But they cannot represent the US internationally. I would not expect them to be listed with an asterisk.

Eligibility to join the USFA does not depend on citizenship. We are glad to take anyone's money. But that doesn't mean you can fence in the national championships or represent the US.

Representing a country internationally is different than fencing outside of their home country. Canadians, for example, can fence in US NACs but can't fence for the US in World Cups in the US.

Fencing in competitions in other countries than the US doesn't mean anything as to whether the fencer will be listed with an asterisk. Fencers who compete outside of their home country usually need an FIE card, which can only be issued through the country which they can represent internationally.

I believe their are special arrangements whereby Canadian and Mexican fencers can compete in USFA competitions without an FIE card (but they must be a member of their home fencing federation). They will be listed with asterisks. I believe there are similar agreements elsewhere in the world between neighboring countries.

And then of course whether a fencer is listed with an asterisk is not the same as to whether they should be listed with an asterisk.

When I started this, I thought it would be easy to explain. Ha! I hope I got it right.

[Matt]

First off, be forewarned that everything I am about to say is six years out of date and may be totally wrong now. Heck, it may have been totally wrong then.

When I was in college my college club hosted several tournaments that were heavily attended by fencers from Canada (being halfway between Seattle and Vancouver BC). Fencers coming down from Canada were not USFA members but CFA members. We were told that these fencers did not need to join the USFA to fence and that we should handle them thusly:

The CFA has a different rating system than the USFA and the two don't mesh well together. If a fencer from Canada had not previously fenced in a USFA tournament and earned a USFA rating they would be considered Unrated, no matter how highly rated they were in Canada. Once a Canadian had earned a USFA rating then they would use that rating for seeding purposes in future USFA tournaments.

Maybe the asterisk has to do with them not being USFA members (and hence that their initial seeding should be taken with a grain of salt).

Matt

[Fencergrl]

Canadians can fence in the US using their CFF license (Matt, it's not CFA). Americans can fence in Canada under their USFA membership.

If you are a Canadian, you need to ensure that you have the correct membership Provincially. In BC we have a Competitive membership and a Recreational one. Only with the Competitive membership you are covered by insurance, for fencing outside your Province. If you do not have a Provincial membership, your CFF license is not considered valid.

[seltzerwater]

The CFA has a different rating system than the USFA and the two don't mesh well together. If a fencer from Canada had not previously fenced in a USFA tournament and earned a USFA rating they would be considered Unrated, no matter how highly rated they were in Canada. Once a Canadian had earned a USFA rating then they would use that rating for seeding purposes in future USFA tournaments.

Maybe the asterisk has to do with them not being USFA members (and hence that their initial seeding should be taken with a grain of salt).

Matt

Matt- What do you mean the ratings systems don't mesh well? Do they use a totally different system? If so- then how can they step into one of our tournaments and be seeded properly?

[Fencergrl]

Canada and the US have totally different systems. In Canada, most people are unrated. So being unrated means you end up with 90%-95% of the fencers in the tournament.

The pools will seed you.

[glowstix]

the asterisk simply means you're not a permanent resident of the US..nothing to do with who you represented before.

[glowstix]

Canada and the US have totally different systems. In Canada, most people are unrated. So being unrated means you end up with 90%-95% of the fencers in the tournament.

The pools will seed you.

actually the canadian letter ranking carries over for seeding. i know someone who has a "C" in our system but was listed as a C2007 for her first comp. in the US.

[glowstix]

Matt- What do you mean the ratings systems don't mesh well? Do they use a totally different system? If so- then how can they step into one of our tournaments and be seeded properly?

we use a point system AND a letter rating system. i find it interesting that no one talks about the letter ratings here (at least not in alberta), .

you get points for your finishes in tournaments (strength is a factor in determining how much points you get, not sure exactly how they calculate anything). tournament seedings are based on provincial points standings. letter rankings are determined from points standings (i think those in contention for the national squad are the only ones with A's, top 8% not including the A's get B's, next 12% get C's, next 20% get D's). a canadian "B" is not the same as a US "B". its incredibly tough to get an A in canada. you don't have your trusty A1 with so called "weak A's" to help you out. i know several canadian B and C fencers who would probably be A's in the US system (of course i'm basing this by comparing their level of fencing with those i fenced in the US that actually had A's). the D bracket in canada seems to have the widest skill range...just showing up to enough tournaments will eventually get you enough points for a D.

[JEC]

If you have FIE points within a given range, at the discretion of the bout committee, you might be seeded with an "A", even if you have not fenced in the USA ever.

Ratings are for properly seed fencers.

[Fencergrl]

a canadian "B" is not the same as a US "B". its incredibly tough to get an A in canada.

Plus they have to be re-earned every year. In order to earn a letter, you must do well in a number of CFF sanctioned events. You cannot even go to Nationals anymore unless you have gone to enough sanctioned events the year prior.

That's why many Canadians don't pay much attention to earning letters. It's really tough to earn them. Much easier to look at your points and see where you rank Nationally or Provincially.... even then it's affected by whether you go to sanctioned events or not.

Getting back to the real topic....
I'm going to assume you are an American seltzerwater, who's thinking about going to a Canadian tournament. Don't worry. The people holding the tournament will understand the American ranking system and accept you with your USFA membership. They will seed you either based on your US ranking or lump you in with the great unwashed.

I am also going to assume it will be a tournament close to the US-Canadian border. This will make it even more likely you will be seeded correctly, as many, many Canadians also hold US rankings and know where you should be seeded. Canadians understand the American system better than Americans understand ours. So relax and have fun.

[erooMynohtnA]

I think this brings up a more important and confusing issue that has been touched upon before.

Why are Canadians allowed to fence in NACs? They're North American Cups, not North Canadian Cups!

They don't need to come down here and carpetbag all our national points! If there is one thing we don't want, it's international competitors fencing with our prospective national team.

[Warrior Princess]

North America is a continent. It includes Canada, The US and Mexico. As far as I know, the only thing that Canadians can't do in the USFA is fence at Nationals or JO's.

[HDG]

North America is a continent. It includes Canada, The US and Mexico. As far as I know, the only thing that Canadians can't do in the USFA is fence at Nationals or JO's.

Settle down; he's referring jokingly to a thread from a few months ago where there was a lot of huffing about this issue.

[erooMynohtnA]

North America is a continent. It includes Canada, The US and Mexico. As far as I know, the only thing that Canadians can't do in the USFA is fence at Nationals or JO's.

Ummmmmm, duh, Mexico is in South America, or why would they call it South of the Border? Take a Geography class.

[Warrior Princess]

Settle down; he's referring jokingly to a thread from a few months ago where there was a lot of huffing about this issue.

I know. But my pet peve is overly-self important Americans that believe that America woth being a citizen in. Even if it's jokingly.

[Warrior Princess]

Ummmmmm, duh, Mexico is in South America, or why would they call it South of the Border? Take a Geography class.

South of the border of the U.S. not North America. It's a superficial division anyway.

[erooMynohtnA]

South of the border of the U.S. not North America. It's a superficial division anyway.

North America, America, USA; potayto, potahto. Whatever you want to call my country, I don't see how any of that makes Mexico any less South American.

And by the way, the division is not superficial. It extends underground as well.

[Schiavona]

North America, America, USA; potayto, potahto. Whatever you want to call my country, I don't see how any of that makes Mexico any less South American.

And by the way, the division is not superficial. It extends underground as well.

A little too much New Year's cheer, Mr Moore?

[parrythis]

North America, America, USA; potayto, potahto. Whatever you want to call my country, I don't see how any of that makes Mexico any less South American.

South America starts with that big land mass that is SOUTH of Panama. Everything north of there is part of the content that those of us who paid attention in Geography class lovingly call North America.

"South of the Border" refers to south of the "United States of America" (just one of several countries in the North American continent) border.