What's It Take?

[bjacobs]

I wondered how long it would take for someone to say that. There are certainly different sport specific types of fitness, and sprinters vs. marathoners is a great example of that.

But objective standards do slip in somewhere. Baseball and soccer are very different sports, with different skill sets and requirements, but there's really no question about whether soccer requires more fitness than baseball, or about whether top soccer players are more fit than top baseball players. As someone who's done both: wrestling practices and wrestling matches are simply more physically demanding than fencing matches and practices.

But absolutely, fitness DOES matter for fencing, and, as you say, fencers must be fencing fit. Don't get me wrong, top fencers ARE fit. You could probably wash clothes on James Williams' stomach. I just get confused at what axe people are trying to grind when they insist fencing requires as much fitness as all other sports, when that's obviously not the case.

[p1nkp4nther]

Originally Posted by bjacobs

I wondered how long it would take for someone to say that. There are certainly different sport specific types of fitness, and sprinters vs. marathoners is a great example of that.

But objective standards do slip in somewhere. Baseball and soccer are very different sports, with different skill sets and requirements, but there's really no question about whether soccer requires more fitness than baseball, or about whether top soccer players are more fit than top baseball players. As someone who's done both: wrestling practices and wrestling matches are simply more physically demanding than fencing matches and practices.

But absolutely, fitness DOES matter for fencing, and, as you say, fencers must be fencing fit. Don't get me wrong, top fencers ARE fit. You could probably wash clothes on James Williams' stomach. I just get confused at what axe people are trying to grind when they insist fencing requires as much fitness as all other sports, when that's obviously not the case.

(highlights mine)

I've never done wrestling, so unfortunately I can't really comment on the first highlighted statement, but I do wonder - (sorry I don't know you) - how serious do you fence? I think this may make a difference.

I believe that when engaging in social fencing or competing at local level one can get by quite easily by not being very fit (using strategy and/or experience to make up for it) - but on international level I doubt if that will work.

Regarding the second highlighted statement:
I believe competitive fencing on international level requires a high level of fitness.

I'm not sure that I or anyone else insisted that "fencing requires as much fitness as all other sports" (I'm not actually really sure what this statement means since it is difficult to compare the fitness requirements between different sports).

[bjacobs]

I was never a great fencer. C level in sabre, C level in epee, did NACs in both, was the alternate for Columbia men's sabre then later Columbia men's epee. But the thing is, I've trained with and know many of top national fencers, through fencing sabre at the New York Fencer's Club (before Yury's split), fencing epee at the New York Athletic Club, and being part of Columbia's team. I've been around a lot of the people who made up the top of US men's sabre, women's sabre, and to a certain extent men's epee. I've practiced with (though it's been quite a few years, admittedly) a lot of national team members. I'm not basing this off of my own past experiences in local competitions, but on my observations of how these people train and what their fitness level is. They're fit. They train hard. They're INCREDIBLE fencers who I respect and envy. But...

The bottom line: top fencers aren't in comparable physical condition to competitive athletes of a lot of sports, and as things stand now, they don't have to be. I talked this over this morning with one of these top fencers, someone who has been competing heavily internationally over the past few years and whose competed as part of the US team a few times: her opinion goes along with mine, and that past a certain minimum baseline fitness tends not to be the deciding factor in fencing. She pointed out, as some other people here can attest to, that it's not unknown for certain top European fencers to go for smoke breaks between bouts at tournaments. Good luck finding that in other sports.

[ViewtifulMisho]

Well, I'm not arguing one way or another, but there are still world-class athletes who smoke.

Here's Nesta, a soccer player for AC Milan and the Italian national team:

http://bp1.blogger.com/_HCoecsrWnHY/...25-smoking.jpg

Here's Zizou smoking:

http://umblograndom.files.wordpress....ing_zidane.jpg

There's Adriano smoking (contains scantily clad women) :

http://img.aftonbladet.se/sport/0610/14/adriano438.jpg

Now you can make the point that they don't smoke in the middle of a game, but there aren't really any breaks in a soccer match. When they're off the field, there is a lot more privacy than in fencing, as well as endorsement deals and FIFA regulations of which to be weary.

Where I will raise a question, however, is with this overall fitness bit. I see what makes a soccer or tennis player more fit than a fencer: they can probably run faster, jump higher, last longer, lift more, throw farther, etc., etc., even if this a shallow comparison.

But what makes a wrestler more fit than a fencer? By what criteria are you judging?

[sheck]

Originally Posted by bjacobs

The bottom line: top fencers aren't in comparable physical condition to competitive athletes of a lot of sports, and as things stand now, they don't have to be. I talked this over this morning with one of these top fencers, someone who has been competing heavily internationally over the past few years and whose competed as part of the US team a few times: her opinion goes along with mine, and that past a certain minimum baseline fitness tends not to be the deciding factor in fencing. She pointed out, as some other people here can attest to, that it's not unknown for certain top European fencers to go for smoke breaks between bouts at tournaments. Good luck finding that in other sports.

You should check out (regarding smoking) a Olympic Weight Lifting competition sometime. LOL!

BTW I agree with what you are saying regarding physical condition and fencing performance.

[p1nkp4nther]

Originally Posted by ViewtifulMisho

...
Where I will raise a question, however, is with this overall fitness bit. I see what makes a soccer or tennis player more fit than a fencer: they can probably run faster, jump higher, last longer, lift more, throw farther, etc., etc., even if this a shallow comparison.

But what makes a wrestler more fit than a fencer? By what criteria are you judging?

This may shed some light on the topic (or tumble us into the darkness of a dragging thread?):


Table 1: Average Maximal Oxygen Uptakes of Team National Athletes
(Maximal uptake in athletes, B. Saltin & P. Astrand, Journal of Applied Physiology, V 23 #3: 353-358, Sept., 1967.)

Event Men Women
Cross-country Skiing 82 63
Running 3000 meters 79 —
Speed Skating 78 54
Orienteering 77 59
Running 800-1500 meters 75 —
Bicycling 74 —
Biathlon 73 —
Walking 71 —
Canoeing 70 —
Downhill Skiing 68 51
Running 400 meters 67 56
Swimming 66 57
Ski Jumping 62 —
Rowing 62 —
Gymnastics 60 —
Table Tennis 58 44
Fencing 58 43
Wrestling 56 —
Weight Lifting 55 —
Archery — 40
Untrained 43 39

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/ARTICLES/...e-training.htm
(sorry I don't have a link to the original article)

ALSO:
Elite examples
VO2max (ml/kg/min)
Cross-country skiers 85 - 95
Long distance running 80 – 90
Middle distance running 65 – 85
400m runners 60 - 65
100m sprinters 50 - 60
Rowers 65 - 75
Slalom canoeists 55 - 65
Speed skating 55 - 65
Netball 45 - 55
Badminton 50 - 60
Taekwondo 45 - 55
http://www.eis2win.co.uk/GEN/news_maximumoxygen.aspx
(I don't know from which study this information comes from)

Some more info here:
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.html

Not that I necessarily believe that VO2max is a good measure of fitness for a fencer, but my conclusion from these numbers would be that (if you were to assume that VO2 is a predictor of fitness):

=> there are many sports that require more fitness (or a higher VO2max)
=> there are sports the require less fitness (or a lower VO2max) (wrestling?)
=> the VO2max of fencers is probably higher than most untrained individuals (although it may be just above the upper limit)

RE smoking: sorry I don't see the point - so what? Fencing also has a big mental component - some fencers smoke to relax. In the past that was not such an unheard of thing...

[downunder]

Originally Posted by p1nkp4nther

This may shed some light on the topic (or tumble us into the darkness of a dragging thread?):


Table 1: Average Maximal Oxygen Uptakes of Team National Athletes
(Maximal uptake in athletes, B. Saltin & P. Astrand, Journal of Applied Physiology, V 23 #3: 353-358, Sept., 1967.)

Event Men Women
Cross-country Skiing 82 63
Running 3000 meters 79 —
Speed Skating 78 54
Orienteering 77 59
Running 800-1500 meters 75 —
Bicycling 74 —
Biathlon 73 —
Walking 71 —
Canoeing 70 —
Downhill Skiing 68 51
Running 400 meters 67 56
Swimming 66 57
Ski Jumping 62 —
Rowing 62 —
Gymnastics 60 —
Table Tennis 58 44
Fencing 58 43
Wrestling 56 —
Weight Lifting 55 —
Archery — 40
Untrained 43 39

I think this may be slightly out of date.

[Inquartata]

Not to mention out of whack. I mean, walking above running? Please.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Not to mention out of whack. I mean, walking above running? Please.

To be fair, have you seen those Olympic walkers go? They're actually scary.

Also the measure used is reflects better on endurance events.

[p1nkp4nther]

True that it's quite out of date - I couldn't get more recent values but would be glad if some else can find.

The fact that this measure is a better predictor of fitness for endurance events is why I don't believe you can really apply it to fencing, but given that - it's still higher than that of an untrained person. How much more then not the components of fitness that is needed for fencing?

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by downunder

To be fair, have you seen those Olympic walkers go? They're actually scary.

Except that the list doesn't specify race-walking. Just says "walking".

And if we're to assume the most intensive version of sports mentioned, then sprints have got to be a lot more intense than race-walking.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Except that the list doesn't specify race-walking. Just says "walking".

And if we're to assume the most intensive version of sports mentioned, then sprints have got to be a lot more intense than race-walking.

Other direction, actually.

Originally Posted by p1nkp4nther

Running 3000 meters 79 —
Running 800-1500 meters 75 —
Walking 71 —
Running 400 meters 67 56

The shorter the distance the more anaerobic the running will get (and therefore the lower the required aerobic capacity of the athletes). This doesn't measure intensity. It's maximal oxygen uptake. Not the same thing at all.

-B

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Except that the list doesn't specify race-walking. Just says "walking".{snip}

Are you suggesting there are "Team National Athletes" in a form of walking other than race-walking?

Finally, an Olympic event I have a shot at....

--Philistine

[Matt87]

I don't really bother to post on many messageboards, preferring rather to simply read, but I thought this was something that I might be able to actually something useful on.

Regarding the fitness levels of fencing - I don't think anyone is trying to say that you must not be fit to fence at the highest levels, and most would agree that an olympic level fencer is a seriously conditioned athlete.

The real argument is that whether or not the olympic fencer is conditioned to similarly elite athletes of other sports, and for that answer it depends seriously on what sport you are comparing it to. Right now, I currently row in college so that is what I know best. As far as fencing goes, I fence at the club collegiate level, and in the past have fenced with top ranked fencers. I can say in what I've seen, comparing fencing to a sport like rowing, where physical strength is pretty close to the end all be all, fencing comes up very short. If you want a comparison the the emphasis placed on conditioning in rowing, were talking about 1-2 hours per day of conditioning alone, and this is for a relatively small rowing program. Also, we train and condition year long, as we have both a fall and spring season, so winter and sumer are both spent in preparation. Bigger college rowing programs, much less olympic rowing programs place even bigger emphasis on it. The Olympic men's eight that won the gold in 2004 was so exhausted from their race that they could not even raise their hands in victory for some time. Meanwhile, watching youtube videos of Olympic fencers, I've never seen one collapse to the floor after a bout from exhaustion (maybe I just don't watch enough videos).

Now compare this to fencing, where I know many fencers that condition, but not nearly to that extent. If they are going to spend that amount of time on something, its usually on drills, bouting, or footwork (which prior to rowing I may have considered a workout, but now its only if I just finished lifting legs before I start a footwork routine).

Really, at the end of it, in rowing, when you lose a race, you go work out harder to pull faster. I have never seen someone lose a bout in fencing and say, wow, if only I had gotten that extra leg lift in. This is what I believe the previous point really comes down to - conditioning is important, but skill is the trumping factor for fencing.

[Applesauce and Foils]

I agree. And I'm not high-level or anything but it does seem like . . . in fencing there's certain things you might be more "fit" than someone in another sport, but I don't think it's an all-over-total-body fitness.

This has taken an interesting turn.

AF

[finnfence]

Originally Posted by Applesauce and Foils

Ha ha. Stop. My side.


Come on.

They have a point, though. Great fencers are not like great bicyclists, because it's a sport of interaction with an opponent. You can't just pull an Armstrong and tool around the plains of Texas on your foil, all by yourself, and expect to get really good.

Take the following advice with a grain of salt, because I am not anything like an elite fencer. I'm more what you'd call a very enthusiastic klutz. That said:

Realistically, in your position what I would do is focus on perfecting what you can perfect on your own - do hours and hours of footwork, target practice, conditioning, psychological training at practice and competitions. Use your opponents to do drills. Work on specific techniques, or on controlling yourself mentally and emotionally - never mind the score on any given night. When you get to college age, pick a college in a city that has good fencing, and go to the best of the clubs you can. Ditto when it comes time to get a job. When you have the freedom to get to a city where the best opponents and coaches are, go there. Make sure you have been training the fundamentals enough that they'll be interested in you, because you'll be older than their average interesting prospect. You may need to grease the wheels with quite a lot of money. There aren't too many coaches in this country who are so elite that you can't get lessons with them unless you're already a champion. You just need to be able to afford the elite coaches' rates. Then, explain what you're trying to do, give them time to see if they think you have what it takes, and go from there. If you're doing well but they don't believe in you because of your age, you'll probably want to get a different coach. Don't worry about making the Olympics in a given year. You'll go there when you're ready. You have plenty of time. Fencers - and athletes in general - are pushing the age limits all the time, and you can keep trying for that Olympic spot til you're middle aged, if you want. If you're a sabrist, it will be harder as you get older; but for epee and foil, you're good to go til your body wears out (looks like maybe mid-50s, at this point, but who knows by the time you get that old) or your priorities in life shift.

[finnfence]

Originally Posted by keith

That question has been answered several times.

Keith, I think she's asking for tactics, not strategy. Is target practice more important than footwork? How many hours a day of each? How many miles a week should she be running? How many hours devoted to free fencing, and when she free fences, what should she be concentrating on? How do you balance will to win with calm detachment, so you can concentrate on the touch? What does an elite athlete eat for best performance? ....etc etc...

[finnfence]

Thinking again, I guess I'd say you can win 4 ways in fencing: speed, strength, technique and tactics. (Of course, you can combine those, too) So your job right now is to find out through introspection and trial and error in bouts and competitions, which of those seem to be your strong points, and work on them.

Technique is a thing that coaches help you most with (some of them can also teach customized tactics, but this is more unusual). So don't worry about it for now, other than basic parries like 4, 6, and 8 and one or two decent attacks like a simple disengage and a simple beat attack. Speed and more advanced tactics are something you develop best with people who are slightly better and faster than you are. So don't worry about them right now, other than interval training and target practice for speed.

Since you can't go where the big coaches and clubs are, spend your time on the exercises to improve strength and basic tactics. Strength: there is nothing like hours and hours of footwork and target practice. Jogging is also reasonably good. Do something to make sure the muscles on the inside of your legs down by your knee (the "soccer muscle") is getting developed at the same rate as your quads, otherwise your kneecaps might start dragging to the side and your knee cartilage can get chewed up. No fun - that's what happened to me.

Basic tactics and technique: Timing is especially important in women's fencing, in the sense that we do a lot of counterattacking and attacks in prep. That's something you can practice with any opponent. You can also work on really basic technique like point control. Don't worry about stuff like elaborate binds and beats and so on. If you're working without a good club to back you, try for perfect distance and perfect point control, which are easier to learn by trial and error, by yourself. Experiment. Even though your opponents aren't pushing you, see what your range is: how far away can you be and still get the attack in there? How close? What happens when you do this or that? Don't just go for the touch, go for a specific touch. Go for more direct attacks and things that depend on timing and direction changes, because people who are not very good aren't going to react to feints and such properly.

Just keep it really simple, and try to make sure no matter what you do, you have the basics functioning like clockwork - hand first for attacks, feet under you *all the time*, ability to make a fully committed lunge, relax and recover/retreat, parry, change direction and attack again all in one smooth controlled motion.

Remember the squeeze-relax thing, and using only the minimum force necessary: for example, when making a parry, use your fingers and a bit of wrist, but don't clench your whole arm and shoulder, or tighten your legs - you don't need to. See how little you can get away with, just by changing the angle of the blade and getting perfect parry distance. Then, once you make a parry, remember that a clenched muscle can't be moved - you have to relax it first. So squeeze/parry-relax-extend/riposte- squeeze/hit-relax- next action whatever it is (remise, counterparry, whatever). Making that squeeze-relax-squeeze-relax automatic and learning to use minimal force will take you a long way.

Remember to breathe. It sounds silly, but make sure that when you're concentrating on the hit, you are still breathing, not holding your breath, which can tighten you up and make the hit harder as well as making you tired over time. If you aren't sure, try exhaling deliberately with the lunge or hit.

I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me, but I suggest fencing as much as you can with guys. They have two things to offer: phychological role model and better quality fencing, on average. Not only do they tend to have a speed advantage and lack of inhibition that prepares a girl better for competition at higher levels of girl-on-girl fencing, they also tend to get more creative and try harder if you start beating them. Try to find a bootstrap partner (even if he or she doesn't realize that's how you're training with him or her): i.e. someone where you can do something to beat them, then they figure that out in response and get a little better, then you figure out what to do about what they just started doing, etc etc. Guys seem to do this naturally. Some girls do, too, but much fewer. I notice that girls tend to just keep trying to do whatever their coach told them to do, and it's coach who has to tell them what to do to fix problem X. Don't be one of those girls. Guys also tend to spend less time talking than training and they tend to really push themselves harder, as well as knowing how to say to themselves "I *can* win. It might not be statistically likely, but I *can*....grrrrrr...." And when they lose, they know how to not take it personally, how to be really disappointed for a few minutes and then go back to "But I *can* win...." together with hours more impassioned practice. It's a useful set of psychological lessons. Just don't pick up the rashness and over-fondness for showy attack that some guys have - girls seem to be better on average at staying cool and playing cat and mouse. Girls are also better at knowing when it's time to stop, and that fencing on a torn muscle or whatever is not cool and does not prove anything. In my experience, elites of both sexes combine the best of both approaches. It's just so hard for a girl to learn the good parts of the guy approach unless she soaks it up from fencing with guys, because coaches and parents and other girls just don't seem to want to teach it. There seems to be an unspoken assumption, still, that girls can't take it, or it isn't feminine, which if you ask me is just silly. Femininity is for off the piste. On the piste, you *can* win....

Best of luck!